I love that it is being released on a weekly basis instead of one full season that you quickly go through. There's so many layers, riddles, and Easter eggs. My kids love trying to figure out what's going on. Strangely, and this is a lot coming from a Star Wars nerd, I enjoy and look forward to WandaVision a lot more than the Mandalorian. Mando was great but the storyline of WandaVision is so good.
Television
- Thread starter gouis
- Start date
Got to see the first installment of Men in Kilts. It's a fun treat for anyone who wants to see Scotland. Plus, Jamie.....
I'm finding Tony basically insufferable during my re-watch of this last season of The Sopranos. It reminds me of my Mad Men re-watch, where I really had a hard time feeling anything but disdain for Don Draper through most of it.
And I'm finding the stuff with AJ to be absolutely heartbreaking this time.
And I'm finding the stuff with AJ to be absolutely heartbreaking this time.
His suicide attempt followed by when Tony pulls him out of the pool was all so dark and sad.
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
It's crazy how a couple of years gives more perspective. I rewatched Breaking Bad early last year and hated Walt right from the start. I recall not hating him until Season 4~ when it was airing. I've started slowly working through Mad Men again this year, I'm just at the end of Season 1, and am already starting to hate Don for how he treats Adam. I don't recall hating him at all when it aired. He isn't as bad as Walt or Tony, but still. I have not rewatched The Sopranos since I got into it in 2015~ but I reckon I'd feel some more disdain.
That's another good example, Walter White...he's pretty selfish and awful through so much of it.
What's interesting to me is, in a second watch of Deadwood I liked Al Swearengen a ton more.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
I thought the point of Breaking Bad was that you were supposed to hate Walt's rapid, and ever deepening, descent into evil and view it as a fascinating character study, and I appreciated it for that. Mad Men on the other hand, I hated everyone in it and I didn't get the point or find the overall story, in the first couple of seasons at least, compelling enough to warrant that, so I never finished it.
TenderLovingKiller®
Well-Known Member
Yup. I thought the same thing. Al is still not a good person but I remember going into my rewatch thinking he was the villain but upon rewatching I found it much more complicated. He is a selfish prick and will do whatever it takes to stay on top but Al wasn’t heartless either and took care of the people around him that needed taken care of.
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
That probably is the point, but he's set up as the main protagonist so you want to support his actions even when he makes awful choices. So people cling on for longer than they should. Mad Men is much more character driven, less plot driven. Don is the main character but not really as important to the story as Walt is to Breaking Bad, for example.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
I think that is where the divide falls with people that love or hate breaking bad (except maybe the people who just think "drugs and murder are cool!") The people that really want someone to root for and feel good about got left behind in that show. I think he is clearly an anti-hero and even though it is possible to pretend that his actions are justified at first, it doesn't take long to become clear that he goes (and keeps going) way farther than he needed to down the criminal path if it was just about his family.
It's been a long time but from what I remember Mad Men seemed, to me, like just a bunch of incredibly selfish assholes going about their lives and it wasn't a world that I was interested in just hanging out in or found enjoyable. I didn't find any of those character studies as interesting I guess.
Bull Shannon
Well-Known Member
What blows my mind is the Scarface-esque cultural tail Walter White has as a hero for aspirational badasses. Nothing he does is good, everything is out of ego but in the name of his family, and some fans really fall for it.
I think Tony Soprano (and the overall cast of The Sopranos) manages to be completely deplorable, but entertaining to watch. The show's pretty clear that he's a monster and gleefully dares to you stop watching.
TenderLovingKiller®
Well-Known Member
Mad Men is my favorite TV drama of all times but I still haven’t found a way to encapsulate why. Most of the characters are flawed and nuanced. I love the look of the show and the evolution, not only of some of the characters but also of the 1960s (the slow decent of Pete Campbell’s hairline is immaculately done). It is also much funnier (in a very dark sense) than it gets credit for. Their are several redeeming characters, most of the women in particular a worthy; Peggy, Joan, Megan, even Sally (especially Sally). The two biggest flaws I have with the show overall, is them deciding to stick January Jones in a fat suit for an entire season and the whole “Glen” character which seemed more like a way to shoe-horn in Matthew Weiner’s son into the show for the sake of an acting career.
I will say I am not convinced Mad Men is for everyone. I have a hard time explaining its brilliance to those that don’t care for it. Strictly from an aesthetics standpoint, if the show was complete devoid of plot and was just a bunch of recreated images of 1960s New York and LA, I think I would have still watched the whole thing. It’s an incredibly well crafted show.
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
I agree, it helps to be into the 1960s/mid-century aesthetics for it to really work. I love that, so I would have probably kept watching too. I remember watching all of Pan Am for that same reason when it aired even though it was not a very good show.
Mad Men is very formal and neat. Everyone is fancy, eloquent and put together on the surface, but then behind the scenes it's obvious not that way. Workplaces were so structured compared to what we have today. There would be no secretaries for the executives in today's offices, there would be no switchboard operators or sandwich cart guys, no drinking or smoking or any of that. It is fascinating seeing how different things were in that time period.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
I still am convinced I missed something, because so many people love it. I just couldn't figure it out and we definitely got to a point where we weren't remotely eagerly anticipating the next episode. I'll give it another shot someday.
Bull Shannon
Well-Known Member
Yeah; I can't think of a strong argument against "these people aren't very nice or good," because most of them aren't; there are a few truly good people like Peggy, but most of them are fun to watch despite themselves. I think the show balances its tone really well; I'd say it's well known for its Serious Themes and literary short-story allusions, but I think people underrate the workplace sitcom hangout of it all.
Also, with every rewatch I find myself loving Betty Draper more and more. That may be due to January Jones's increasingly-unhinged instagram winning me over, though.
TenderLovingKiller®
Well-Known Member
Better Call Saul I think has told a similar story to Breaking Bad but I think it proves that Jimmy McGill feels like (at least at this point) to have a conscious and feels guilt for his actions on a much more human scale than Walt ever did, White used his family and health situation to manipulate others and justify his actions but he never saw any remorsefulness, Jimmy is selfish and has a chip on his shoulder but you get a sense that while he revels in being a sneaky rat fuck he also kinda hates himself for it once the glow of the moment subsides.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
Yeah I think he is a far more sympathetic character for a lot of reasons. Even his clear flaws they set up for you to want to forgive somewhat based on his backstory. I think it was a conscious decision not to come up with things in Walt's past that made you understand why he might have turned out the way he did to avoid sympathetic explanation.
Both really great shows.
TenderLovingKiller®
Well-Known Member
My girlfriend absolutely hates almost all dramas (tv or movies) she will tolerate me watching them but she, herself had never sought them out. Though she had casually watch the Mad Men with me since it’s debut, I never thought it was something she enjoyed... that is until towards the end of the shows run when I can home from work one day to find her binging through the first season on DVD, I guess somewhere around season 3 or 4 something had clicked for her and she really got pulled in and decided that since she had not payed super close attention to the first few seasons that she needed to start back over from the beginning. I think I have now rewatched it with her a few times and is still the only drama that I could really point to that she completely enjoys. She did just watch the Sopranos and the Wire with me for her first time, I think she enjoyed The Sopranos more than Wire for the record, I don’t know if she would actually enjoy rewatching either series again.
A show like Succession has even less likeable characters yet they were played so wonderfully by the actors, the more I watched the more I became invested. With Mad Men, I liked quite a few of the characters initially and the style of the show kept me interested even before the storylines pulled me in.
That's a good way to put it. "here's your anti-hero, go ahead root for him among all the other deplorables." It works. Although I have a very hard time with Melfi staying with him/treating him that long. I realize the show demonstrates that she's getting something out of it too...still, he's so aggressive towards her, it gets beyond uncomfortable to watch.
I had forgotten about that until my re-watch. I remember wondering - who did she piss off? Her character got some shit storyline decisions in Last Man on Earth too. Maybe she does piss off the creators of these shows.
I could talk about these shows for days.
Mad Men, BB, Saul, The Wire, Deadwood, Sopranos. That's like my A+ TV list right there.
TenderLovingKiller®
Well-Known Member
Completely. I would say, while Don is the shows obvious protagonist, the 1960s are the main character. Seeing the how much things changed over that decade is as interesting as any characters development over the shows run. I think Don’s lack of/resistance to change over the decade is one of the most interesting points of the show. 1960 Don and 1970 Don are effectively the same person which is amazing when you look at how much the world and people around him changed over that same 10 year span.
dhodo
Well-Known Member
My wife will watch most modern ones with me and enjoys Better Call Saul, for instance. I have a hard time convincing her to stick with the older, somewhat slower paced shows, like the Wire and the Sopranos, which is too bad. We recently petered out in season two of the Wire on her first watch
. I think pacing and prevalence of cliffhanger, binge-encouraging, episode endings has changed a lot since then and made it harder for some people to appreciate slower burning arcs. Maybe it would be better if I could convince her to commit to one a week, but I'm not pushing it. Oh well!