The Pro-Ject Pergola - Questions, Answers, Advice & Chat

[Joe Mac]

Appreciate the suggestions!

Totally see your point about getting the Esprit instead of upgrading the Carbon. I have a friend who loves his LX2 but someone else recommended the V90. For the additional money though, seems like the LX2 is the ay to go.

Those Lintons seem to get a lot of love for sure. Doesn't seem to be anywhere near me to give them a listen. I think that's one of my main challenges: I haven't had a lot of experience with various setups.

The first TT I listened to was an AT LP60 hooked up to an Onkyo Home Theatre-in-a-box system. My current Carbon setup was a noticeable improvement. A close friend has a Scout Jr, 2M black, LX2 pre amp and Polk Tsi300 speakers. I really like the sound of his setup: it's dynamic, warm and projects a bigger soundstage (at least to me). But, that's more turntable than I can afford (if the Scout was still avail) and that's obviously where the bulk of his budget was spent.

Oh sorry I don’t think you should upgrade to the esprit either, I should have made myself more clear

What I meant was that if you had an esprit an upgraded stylus would make monetary sense but with the standard debut adding the platter and stylus wouldn’t make sense when you have such a healthy budget. You should make an upward move rather than going pretty much sideways to the same as what you have with a couple more features.

Personally with your budget I’d be tempted by the pioneer plx1000, a grado gold3 cartridge, the lx2 and then whatever the best speakers you can afford with what’s left.

If you don’t need the big stand mount Lintons, or don’t want to spend all that on them & stands (you really have to treat them and the stands as one purchase, they’re not an optional extra for me) you should check out their bookshelf stablemate the Denton Heritage 85, they’re also well loved around here.

 

[Phx_Vinyl_Newbie]

If you’re considering cartridges I suppose what do you think of the red? How is it lacking for you and what would you like to add?

You should also have a read through this thread for some good comparisons and experiences.

Phono Cartridges - Your favorites and least favorites?

I just wanted to share some of my experiences with cartridges and also get some thoughts from everyone on what their favorite and least favorite phono cartridges have been. I'm currently looking to replace a Denon DL-110 on my second TT (stylus broken by my son, secure your stuff if you have...

www.needlesandgrooves.com

If you’re looking direct drive I’d make sure to have the pioneer plx-1000 on your list too.

Thanks! I'll check that thread out and look into the plx-1000.

Re the 2M Red: I don't have a lot of points of comparison but to my ears the net result of the setup I have is that the mids and high are fairly well defined but the overall sound is a little bright and the soundstage feels compressed.

 

[Phx_Vinyl_Newbie]

Oh sorry I don’t think you should upgrade to the esprit either, I should have made myself more clear

What I meant was that if you had an esprit an upgraded stylus would make monetary sense but with the standard debut adding the platter and stylus wouldn’t make sense when you have such a healthy budget. You should make an upward move rather than going pretty much sideways to the same as what you have with a couple more features.

Personally with your budget I’d be tempted by the pioneer plx1000, a grado gold3 cartridge, the lx2 and then whatever the best speakers you can afford with what’s left.

If you don’t need the big stand mount Lintons, or don’t want to spend all that on them & stands (you really have to treat them and the stands as one purchase, they’re not an optional extra for me) you should check out their bookshelf stablemate the Denton Heritage 85, they’re also well loved around here.

oops, I obviously missed your meaning.

I've been curious about the Grado cartridges. Seen them mentioned in several threads. Appreciate the clarification and all the advice!

 

[Phx_Vinyl_Newbie]

The VM95ML tracks like nobody’s business, thanks to the ML stylus. Comparatively to the 2M Red, the VM95ML is much more clear. Separation of instruments is fantastic, allowing you to hear more texture between them than the Red. The stylus tip is much finer than a 2M Red as well which allows it to read deeper in the groove for information. People have said that a ML stylus can play a record previously worn with an elliptical stylus with more clarity because of this.

Great info, thank you!

 

[Joe Mac]

Thanks! I'll check that thread out and look into the plx-1000.

Re the 2M Red: I don't have a lot of points of comparison but to my ears the net result of the setup I have is that the mids and high are fairly well defined but the overall sound is a little bright and the soundstage feels compressed.

That’s actually a fair reflection on the red if I’m honest. It was my first cartridge too (for the same reason, mounted on pro-ject) and I really didn’t mind it at the time.

Upgrades since have made me realise that it’s actually not all that good but that’s something you should decide for itself.

The blue I found was much more detailed and less compressed, it had a wider soundstage. It was also a little bright to my ear, that detailed sound is an ortofon trademark. It is, however a decent cartridge in its price range.

I then moved over to grados with a gold. I like the grados more because they are warmer and emphasised the mids more. It was less detailed than the blue but that detail was retrieved, whilst not losing the warm sound, when upgrading the stylus to an 8mz after the year was up.

Sadly I’ve no experience with the AT, but plenty around here have so there are loads of comparisons knocking about.

 

[HayesWeighsIn]

That’s actually a fair reflection on the red if I’m honest. It was my first cartridge too (for the same reason, mounted on pro-next) and I really didn’t mind it at the time.

Upgrades since have made me realise that it’s actually not all that good but that’s something you should decide for itself.

Yep, I'd agree as well @Phx_Vinyl_Newbie! And I also agree with Joe. Since my ear has had time with better stuff, it makes the 2M's feel pretty compressed, harsh, and not very dynamic. The only one I don't have experience with is the Black, but for that price, there are way way more refined and complex options available.

I suspect you'll dig the VM95-ML as it has that same brighter and energetic presentation, but by all accounts is much more musical and detailed - sorry for the stock adjectives! But I think you get what I mean.

 

[wmeugene]

That’s actually a fair reflection on the red if I’m honest. It was my first cartridge too (for the same reason, mounted on pro-ject) and I really didn’t mind it at the time.

Upgrades since have made me realise that it’s actually not all that good but that’s something you should decide for itself.

The blue I found was much more detailed and less compressed, it had a wider soundstage. It was also a little bright to my ear, that detailed sound is an ortofon trademark. It is, however a decent cartridge in its price range.

I then moved over to grados with a gold. I like the grados more because they are warmer and emphasised the mids more. It was less detailed than the blue but that detail was retrieved, whilst not losing the warm sound, when upgrading the stylus to an 8mz after the year was up.

Sadly I’ve no experience with the AT, but plenty around here have so there are loads of comparisons knocking about.

I went from the 2m Red to the Grado Gold3 and it was a huge upgrade. The 2m Red sounded both harsh and muddled at times, nowhere near as warm as the Grado. I think the Gold3 has more detail than the 2m Red and is a lot more musical.

As to the upgrade, I think your decision is whether to make one big upgrade and work around it, or to make everything better.

 

[Joe Mac]

I went from the 2m Red to the Grado Gold3 and it was a huge upgrade. The 2m Red sounded both harsh and muddled at times, nowhere near as warm as the Grado. I think the Gold3 has more detail than the 2m Red and is a lot more musical.

As to the upgrade, I think your decision is whether to make one big upgrade and work around it, or to make everything better.

I’d 100% agree it has more detail than the red, the red is a bit of a dog of a cartridge. The blue really is the sweet spot of the 2M line, I felt my Gold2 had less detail than the blue but I much preferred the sound coming out of it. That said I also felt that all that detail, alongside the beautiful warmer sound, was retrieved by adding the 8mz stylus.

 

[Phx_Vinyl_Newbie]

Thanks to everyone for their help. Truly appreciate the willingness to lend your knowledge/experience in an area where the amount of options (and preferences) can be overwhelming.

After doing more reading and research based on your suggestions, these are the combinations I'm currently considering. A few go over my 2K budget but it's still manageable. Some of these are more of an upgrade across the board and some spend more heavily on the TT. From cheapest total cost to highest (I would also get the LX2-LPS regardless):

Pioneer PLX-1000
Grado gold 3
Wharfedale Diamond 240 (might be able to get a good deal on these locally)

Technics SL-1200MK7
AT VM540ML
Wharferdale Denton 80 anniversary

Technics SL 1500C
AT-VM95ML
Polk TSi400s

Studiodeck
UltraTracker
Polk TSi300s

Still looking for something that's not overly bright, has more detail and a bigger soundstage. I also want something that I can enjoy without upgrading significantly for several years. Any on these stand out as a "better" option?

 

[Melt Face Molly Drop]

Thanks to everyone for their help. Truly appreciate the willingness to lend your knowledge/experience in an area where the amount of options (and preferences) can be overwhelming.

After doing more reading and research based on your suggestions, these are the combinations I'm currently considering. A few go over my 2K budget but it's still manageable. Some of these are more of an upgrade across the board and some spend more heavily on the TT. From cheapest total cost to highest (I would also get the LX2-LPS regardless):

Pioneer PLX-1000
Grado gold 3
Wharfedale Diamond 240 (might be able to get a good deal on these locally)

Technics SL-1200MK7
AT VM540ML
Wharferdale Denton 80 anniversary

Technics SL 1500C
AT-VM95ML
Polk TSi400s

Studiodeck
UltraTracker
Polk TSi300s

Still looking for something that's not overly bright, has more detail and a bigger soundstage. I also want something that I can enjoy without upgrading significantly for several years. Any on these stand out as a "better" option?

I don't have much to add here except nice to see another fellow Phoenician in the house. My gear is in my signature, but once my Ortofon Blue is used up, I'll probably set my sights on the Grado Gold 3, so you'll have to let us know your thoughts if you decide to go in that direction.

Outside of Arizona HiFi on Camelback, are there other spots you'd recommend checking out?

 

[HiFi Guy]

Thanks to everyone for their help. Truly appreciate the willingness to lend your knowledge/experience in an area where the amount of options (and preferences) can be overwhelming.

After doing more reading and research based on your suggestions, these are the combinations I'm currently considering. A few go over my 2K budget but it's still manageable. Some of these are more of an upgrade across the board and some spend more heavily on the TT. From cheapest total cost to highest (I would also get the LX2-LPS regardless):

Pioneer PLX-1000
Grado gold 3
Wharfedale Diamond 240 (might be able to get a good deal on these locally)

Technics SL-1200MK7
AT VM540ML
Wharferdale Denton 80 anniversary

Technics SL 1500C
AT-VM95ML
Polk TSi400s

Studiodeck
UltraTracker
Polk TSi300s

Still looking for something that's not overly bright, has more detail and a bigger soundstage. I also want something that I can enjoy without upgrading significantly for several years. Any on these stand out as a "better" option?

You’ll have a hard time finding the Denton 80th now. They’ve been on close out for some time and Music Direct is sold out.

 

[HiFi Guy]

Thanks to everyone for their help. Truly appreciate the willingness to lend your knowledge/experience in an area where the amount of options (and preferences) can be overwhelming.

After doing more reading and research based on your suggestions, these are the combinations I'm currently considering. A few go over my 2K budget but it's still manageable. Some of these are more of an upgrade across the board and some spend more heavily on the TT. From cheapest total cost to highest (I would also get the LX2-LPS regardless):

Pioneer PLX-1000
Grado gold 3
Wharfedale Diamond 240 (might be able to get a good deal on these locally)

Technics SL-1200MK7
AT VM540ML
Wharferdale Denton 80 anniversary

Technics SL 1500C
AT-VM95ML
Polk TSi400s

Studiodeck
UltraTracker
Polk TSi300s

Still looking for something that's not overly bright, has more detail and a bigger soundstage. I also want something that I can enjoy without upgrading significantly for several years. Any on these stand out as a "better" option?

Also, I’ve got one of these in house. It’s quite early on, but you might want to seriously look at this vs. the Musical Fidelity. If the MuFi nerds service, it’ll have to go to the factory in England. That’s what happened to @AnthonyI before he moved it along (after it was repaired).

MM-6: All-Discrete Zero-Feedback High-Voltage J-FET RIAA Phono Preamp - Designed to Compete with 'Cost-No-Object' — Darlington Labs

MM-6: Fully-Discrete, Zero Negative Feedback, High-Voltage J-FET (Junction Field Effect Transistor) Phono Preamplifier Why settle for underwhelming performance from the well-known names? Get * truly high class” sound with hand-built USA quality, from an engineering team with 50+ years experien

www.darlingtonlabs.com

 

[Phx_Vinyl_Newbie]

You’ll have a hard time finding the Denton 80th now. They’ve been on close out for some time and Music Direct is sold out.

Thanks! Yup, the 85s are definitely easier to find but they're outside my budget. I managed to find a pair of 80s online though.

Also, I’ve got one of these in house. It’s quite early on, but you might want to seriously look at this vs. the Musical Fidelity. If the MuFi nerds service, it’ll have to go to the factory in England. That’s what happened to @AnthonyI before he moved it along (after it was repaired).

MM-6: All-Discrete Zero-Feedback High-Voltage J-FET RIAA Phono Preamp - Designed to Compete with 'Cost-No-Object' — Darlington Labs

MM-6: Fully-Discrete, Zero Negative Feedback, High-Voltage J-FET (Junction Field Effect Transistor) Phono Preamplifier Why settle for underwhelming performance from the well-known names? Get * truly high class” sound with hand-built USA quality, from an engineering team with 50+ years experien

www.darlingtonlabs.com

Good to know. Hadn't considered that aspect. I've seen the MM6 mentioned in other threads as well. How does it compare to the MuFi?

Appreciate the help!

 

[Phx_Vinyl_Newbie]

I don't have much to add here except nice to see another fellow Phoenician in the house. My gear is in my signature, but once my Ortofon Blue is used up, I'll probably set my sights on the Grado Gold 3, so you'll have to let us know your thoughts if you decide to go in that direction.

Outside of Arizona HiFi on Camelback, are there other spots you'd recommend checking out?

Yes, good to see a fellow AZer here HiFi is the only spot I've been to, so can't recommend anything else. Love that Stinkweeds is around the corner too.

 

[HiFi Guy]

Thanks! Yup, the 85s are definitely easier to find but they're outside my budget. I managed to find a pair of 80s online though.


Good to know. Hadn't considered that aspect. I've seen the MM6 mentioned in other threads as well. How does it compare to the MuFi?

Appreciate the help!

I don’t have a MuFi in house. Something to consider- the Darlington is a dedicated MM only phono stage, so all of the budget went to optimize performance with MM/MI/High output MC cartridges. The MuFi does low output MC as well, so some of the budget goes to low output MC capability, which you may never use.

 

[Phx_Vinyl_Newbie]

I don’t have a MuFi in house. Something to consider- the Darlington is a dedicated MM only phono stage, so all of the budget went to optimize performance with MM/MI/High output MC cartridges. The MuFi does low output MC as well, so some of the budget goes to low output MC capability, which you may never use.

Excellent info. Will do more reading/research on the MM6. Not to bug, but any thoughts on the various TTs on my list? Feel like any will be an upgrade to my Carbon + Red but still wondering if it's best to spread the budget across all components or pour most of it on the TT.

 

[HiFi Guy]

Excellent info. Will do more reading/research on the MM6. Not to bug, but any thoughts on the various TTs on my list? Feel like any will be an upgrade to my Carbon + Red but still wondering if it's best to spread the budget across all components or pour most of it on the TT.

You aren’t bugging at all. No worries. I’m really fond of both the MoFi and the Pioneer. I still love my MoFi and it’s been rock solid since new. I’d have to spend double to get an appreciable performance gain.

I’ve also owned the Pioneer. Another solid choice. A few things to be aware of:

Some examples (including mine) have had slightly loose tone arm bearings. This is reported to be rectified now. If you get one with loose bearings, it’s a two minute fix. I can help you.

I hated the lack of hinges for the dust cover.

Performance can be improved with the addition of the KAB TD-1200 tone arm damper ($150). It really tightens up the bass and improves tracking.

I don’t like the Pioneer head shell. I’d recommend a headshell with adjustable azimuth (stylus tilt side to side).

The “throw away” cables supplied with the Pioneer should be thrown away. They suck. Just strip the ground wire away from the audio cables so you can use it with whatever cables you get.

Please don’t think I’m ragging on the Pioneer. It’s really good, but with proper setup can be better. Same with the MoFi: the azimuth was off from the factory and is user adjustable.

The Technics I like start with the GR. I don’t see the value with the 1500- you get a 2m Red and the phono stage- neither of which you’ll need.

Put as much towards the TT as you can. The rest of the gear can’t fix what the turntable/cartridge/phono stage doesn’t/can’t extract from the vinyl. Do not underestimate the importance of a good phono stage.

 

[Phx_Vinyl_Newbie]

You aren’t bugging at all. No worries. I’m really fond of both the MoFi and the Pioneer. I still love my MoFi and it’s been rock solid since new. I’d have to spend double to get an appreciable performance gain.

I’ve also owned the Pioneer. Another solid choice. A few things to be aware of:

Some examples (including mine) have had slightly loose tone arm bearings. This is reported to be rectified now. If you get one with loose bearings, it’s a two minute fix. I can help you.

I hated the lack of hinges for the dust cover.

Performance can be improved with the addition of the KAB TD-1200 tone arm damper ($150). It really tightens up the bass and improves tracking.

I don’t like the Pioneer head shell. I’d recommend a headshell with adjustable azimuth (stylus tilt side to side).

The “throw away” cables supplied with the Pioneer should be thrown away. They suck. Just strip the ground wire away from the audio cables so you can use it with whatever cables you get.

Please don’t think I’m ragging on the Pioneer. It’s really good, but with proper setup can be better. Same with the MoFi: the azimuth was off from the factory and is user adjustable.

The Technics I like start with the GR. I don’t see the value with the 1500- you get a 2m Red and the phono stage- neither of which you’ll need.

Put as much towards the TT as you can. The rest of the gear can’t fix what the turntable/cartridge/phono stage doesn’t/can’t extract from the vinyl. Do not underestimate the importance of a good phono stage.

Oh man, this is such great help. Was talking to a friend whose setup I enjoy listening to and he also put most of his budget on the TT (Scout Jr).

However, since this is my first real investment into better equipment, I think I'm going to go with the Pioneer with some upgrades (as you noted). The more I think about it the more it makes sense for someone who is relatively new to all this.

Plus I think it makes me less nervous moneywise, lol. I don't think this will be my last TT purchase but I need a bit more experience with different equipment before I feel comfortable selecting/investing in a more expensive one.

Re: upgrades you noted - I have heard of the KAB damper and will add that to my list. Need to look at headshells and cables. For cables, is there something specific to look for? I have seen some "frighteningly" pricey ones.

Also, although I can't find a ton of reviews on the MM6, what I found is all positive and the description of the sound seems to match what I'm looking for!

Thanks again

 

[Joe Mac]

Oh man, this is such great help. Was talking to a friend whose setup I enjoy listening to and he also put most of his budget on the TT (Scout Jr).

However, since this is my first real investment into better equipment, I think I'm going to go with the Pioneer with some upgrades (as you noted). The more I think about it the more it makes sense for someone who is relatively new to all this.

Plus I think it makes me less nervous moneywise, lol. I don't think this will be my last TT purchase but I need a bit more experience with different equipment before I feel comfortable selecting/investing in a more expensive one.

Re: upgrades you noted - I have heard of the KAB damper and will add that to my list. Need to look at headshells and cables. For cables, is there something specific to look for? I have seen some "frighteningly" pricey ones.

Also, although I can't find a ton of reviews on the MM6, what I found is all positive and the description of the sound seems to match what I'm looking for!

Thanks again

For a great quality at a lower price point you can’t beat blue jeans.

www.bluejeanscable.com

 

[HiFi Guy]

Oh man, this is such great help. Was talking to a friend whose setup I enjoy listening to and he also put most of his budget on the TT (Scout Jr).

However, since this is my first real investment into better equipment, I think I'm going to go with the Pioneer with some upgrades (as you noted). The more I think about it the more it makes sense for someone who is relatively new to all this.

Plus I think it makes me less nervous moneywise, lol. I don't think this will be my last TT purchase but I need a bit more experience with different equipment before I feel comfortable selecting/investing in a more expensive one.

Re: upgrades you noted - I have heard of the KAB damper and will add that to my list. Need to look at headshells and cables. For cables, is there something specific to look for? I have seen some "frighteningly" pricey ones.

Also, although I can't find a ton of reviews on the MM6, what I found is all positive and the description of the sound seems to match what I'm looking for!

Thanks again

I’ll second Blue Jeans cables as @Joe Mac mentioned. I run and like them myself.

You won’t find a ton on Darlington Labs as they are a new company based in Massachusetts. I’ll have a review posted in a month or so, but I can tell you that I’m pretty excited about it after listening for a few hours last night. It definitely punches far above its price point.