Hot Take/ Musical Confession Thread!

Chucktshoes said:
I’m so sick of cancel culture and its purveyors. At this point folks are just searching for their next targets for the rush it gives them. They prove how often the cure is worse than the disease.
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yes and no. People like Bill Cosby, Louis CK, Harvey Weinstein deserve everything that came for them. But what cancel culture doesn't have or hasn't developed yet is how do these people come back from those accusations if they've made changes or are trying to right their wrongs. How do people who've done "less severe" things like this Pinegrove situation or Aziz Ansari? They're shitty situations and they have done bad things, but they don't deserve to be 100% cancelled. How does culture take them back, resolve what they've done so they can carry on creating things that people enjoy?

People love to say "let's cancel Pinegrove" because they read a headline two years ago without any context of the situation. Same thing happened with Conor Oberst back in '13 or '14 (I think). Someone had accused him of raping a fan after a show but they later came forward and said it was all a lie. Can you imagine what would have happened to Conor had that accusation came out today? oh boy. He'd never fully recover.

Cancel culture is too quick to judge depending on the severity of the situation. Sexual coercion (Pinegrove, Aziz) is absolutely not the same thing as sexual assault or worse. They shouldn't be lumped into the same "let's cancel [artist] because of this thing' every single time they're mentioned or brought up. People also love to be on the side of right vs. wrong. And it's easier to deny an artist space and time of day instead of finding a way to work them back into culture or a music scene.

I am no way endorsing problematic artists, but there's a line that needs to be managed well if you really enjoy their work and want to feel okay about listening/watching it again. It's tough.

Count_Vader said:
My issue with cancel culture is how innocuous it can be. Oh no! Someone made an edgy joke a decade ago! Let's ruin their career because people can't possibly change and improve over the course of 10 years
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this too. We'd all be cancelled for things we've said or done years ago. Context is key.
 
wokeupnew said:
yes and no. People like Bill Cosby, Louis CK, Harvey Weinstein deserve everything that came for them. But what cancel culture doesn't have or hasn't developed yet is how do these people come back from those accusations if they've made changes or are trying to right their wrongs. How do people who've done "less severe" things like this Pinegrove situation or Aziz Ansari? They're shitty situations and they have done bad things, but they don't deserve to be 100% cancelled. How does culture take them back, resolve what they've done so they can carry on creating things that people enjoy?

People love to say "let's cancel Pinegrove" because they read a headline two years ago without any context of the situation. Same thing happened with Conor Oberst back in '13 or '14 (I think). Someone had accused him of raping a fan after a show but they later came forward and said it was all a lie. Can you imagine what would have happened to Conor had that accusation came out today? oh boy. He'd never fully recover.

Cancel culture is too quick to judge depending on the severity of the situation. Sexual coercion (Pinegrove, Aziz) is absolutely not the same thing as sexual assault or worse. They shouldn't be lumped into the same "let's cancel [artist] because of this thing' every single time they're mentioned or brought up. People also love to be on the side of right vs. wrong. And it's easier to deny an artist space and time of day instead of finding a way to work them back into culture or a music scene.

I am no way endorsing problematic artists, but there's a line that needs to be managed well if you really enjoy their work and want to feel okay about listening/watching it again. It's tough.

this too. We'd all be cancelled for things we've said or done years ago. Context is key.
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Exactly. Legitimately victimizing and hurting people repeatedly over years like Cosby and Weinstein is a worthy cause for cancellation. Being an edgelord years ago isn't.
 
wokeupnew said:
I truly cannot find a "Your Fave is Problematic" thread. I thought we had one here but maybe not. So this thread is reasonably close to that one. @mods please move to that thread if it's titled something that I have not found via search.

So what are everyone's thoughts on Pinegrove? They released a new song and have an album coming out.

www.stereogum.com

Pinegrove Sign To Rough Trade, Share New Song "Moment": Listen

It’s been a turbulent time for Pinegrove, the New Jersey indie rock band. In 2017, frontman Evan Stephens Hall put out a statement apologizing for his behavior with women, cancelled the band’s tour, and delayed the release of the album Skylight. Hall acknowledged that he’d been accused of sexual...
www.stereogum.com www.stereogum.com

The comments over on the Stereogum piece kinda sum up my thoughts. Like, everyone has to work with what info there is out there about the whole situation. We don't know if there's still some info that's not being shared. Some people on twitter are cryptic about the band/Evan still being abusers, but provide no insight into why they should not be supported/trusted. Evan himself realized his problems and decided to pursue help and make reprimands for his actions. He didn't murder anyone, the victims seem to be okay with what has transpired and they're back now. If he did something significantly worse like murder or sexual assault/rape I'd say good riddance. But he has not. Does cancel culture go too far for minor transgressions on the scale of abusive behavior? Reflecting on one's actions, trying to change behavior and become a better person, should society give someone a second chance?
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Dave Chapelle addresses this best with his impression #2.

 
scotthilk said:
Dave Chapelle addresses this best with his impression #2.

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Thank you for posting this. I thought about it reading these threads, but I was too lazy (and at work) to grab it.

Segue...that stand-up special had a couple highlights but was overall lazy and not that funny. There was some offensive stuff but comedy should have the right to offend (especially annoying when a person cherry picks only what pertains to them personally to be offended about and gives a pass to everything else); but, really, it just wasn't that inspired. His last special was way better.
 
sorcerer said:
Was the door locked or some shit? Cause you have like a long ass time to dip out once you realize what the game is, especially if he already starts it off by saying "Yo can I jerk off in front of you?"
Like, unless he really gets off on uncomfortable situations, it should've taken him multiple minutes to even get going. Leaving a room would take like 20 seconds at the most.
That's nowhere near as bad as drugging a girls drink and raping her. Like, Louis's thing is something you can actually atone for in a lifetime.
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For some people yes, this could be something that they can be forgiven for. For me it’s not. It’s all subjective on what we as consumers/fans of artists can tolerate/allow. Most people have not and will not forgive him for that. But some have and that’s why he’s still out there playing shows.
 
sorcerer said:
Was the door locked or some shit? Cause you have like a long ass time to dip out once you realize what the game is, especially if he already starts it off by saying "Yo can I jerk off in front of you?"
Like, unless he really gets off on uncomfortable situations, it should've taken him multiple minutes to even get going. Leaving a room would take like 20 seconds at the most.
That's nowhere near as bad as drugging a girls drink and raping her. Like, Louis's thing is something you can actually atone for in a lifetime.
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Sometime people freeze when there in these situations and don't know what to do.
 
scotthilk said:
Dave Chapelle addresses this best with his impression #2.

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That was one of the many great and pointed parts of the special. I loved it. Did you watch the bonus bit?
TheMythOfSisyphus said:
Thank you for posting this. I thought about it reading these threads, but I was too lazy (and at work) to grab it.

Segue...that stand-up special had a couple highlights but was overall lazy and not that funny. There was some offensive stuff but comedy should have the right to offend (especially annoying when a person cherry picks only what pertains to them personally to be offended about and gives a pass to everything else); but, really, it just wasn't that inspired. His last special was way better.
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Gotta disagree. I thought it was genius. It was less cheap laughs and more pointed and biting commentary. I mean, that’s what I think is what makes great comedy anyway. It’s the jester telling the truth.

Of course I also loved the way Chapelle also made it clear that he gives zero fucks about the contingent of folks in the outrage mob will be sharpening their pitchforks for him. I think that’s how you deal with those folks and cancel culture in general, laugh at them and show them they have no power over you.
 
sorcerer said:
I think most people didn't care to begin with and still don't really care now. If you mean most fans of Louis C.K cancelled him, that's ultimately something that can't be judged but I doubt that as well.



Were there any specific stories of women freezing up and walking out like midway through or did they just freeze up and stay the whole game anyways? Context is highly important.
Also what were the ages? Cause the older you get, the more you should be able to get a grasp of yourself in uncomfortable situations and make a decision for yourself.
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It doesn’t matter. It’s not really the victims fault that Louie CK started to rub one out in front them. What he did was gross and disrespectful (but maybe not criminal). If people wanna call anyone out for being pieces of shit that is fine.

I do agree that we unfortunately live in a world where there isn’t much room for a nuanced discussion. People get angry and start with hyperbolic attacks which then lose all credibility since every instance is quite different. Yes all are shitty but no one wants to discuss the varying degree in the levels of shittyness. That being said, the easiest solution for the vast majority of these cases would be to be for the alleged perpetrators to not be creeps to begin with.
 
sorcerer said:
I think most people didn't care to begin with and still don't really care now. If you mean most fans of Louis C.K cancelled him, that's ultimately something that can't be judged but I doubt that as well.



Were there any specific stories of women freezing up and walking out like midway through or did they just freeze up and stay the whole game anyways? Context is highly important.
Also what were the ages? Cause the older you get, the more you should be able to get a grasp of yourself in uncomfortable situations and make a decision for yourself.
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This take is a big yikes
TenderLovingKiller® said:
That being said, the easiest solution for the vast majority of these cases would be to be for the alleged perpetrators to not be creeps to begin with.
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Bingo
 
sorcerer said:
This answered nor contradicted anything
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You think rubbing one out in front of someone whether consensual or not can be forgivable. I do not.

The fact you’re trying to goalpost this whole situation and say someone’s age has something to do with how they’d react. I don’t even know where to begin. Age doesn’t matter. You’re blaming the victim. Louis CK should not have done those things to begin with. That’s it.
 
sorcerer said:
I think most people didn't care to begin with and still don't really care now. If you mean most fans of Louis C.K cancelled him, that's ultimately something that can't be judged but I doubt that as well.



Were there any specific stories of women freezing up and walking out like midway through or did they just freeze up and stay the whole game anyways? Context is highly important.
Also what were the ages? Cause the older you get, the more you should be able to get a grasp of yourself in uncomfortable situations and make a decision for yourself.
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It would seem that way but everybody has different life experiences. When you use words like should you are setting expectations for a person’s behavior. How do you think that sounds to a victim? A person who is already feeling fragile, scared and powerless.
 
Sooo....
If we’re gonna turn this into the problematic fav thread, what’re y’all l’s thoughts on the Katy Perry allegations?

Is what’s good for the goose good for the gander?
 
I feel like the constant repetitive talking points used to criticize "cancel culture" are just as lacking in nuance as the "cancel culture" they claim to be against. Moreover, I think reducing a MASSIVELY complex and multi-faceted group of issues into one term, and writing it off entirely, is a willfully ignorant and reductive take. Can we really lump comedians making shitty jokes, celebrities being serial rapists, musicians saying racist things, etc. into the same thing? Are there really no factors that are at play in one of those scenarios but not the others? Furthermore, should we really say that "This person should publicly apologize for their past transgressions and strive to be better" "I personally am choosing to not consume this person's work anymore" "This person should be cast out of their industry and shouldn't receive any support anymore" are the same thing? I dunno, I just feel like "cancel culture" is not the monolithic, life-destroying, nuance-less entity that some people say it is, and when there are thousands of different discussions to be had and approaches to be taken depending on what exact transgression we're talking about, coming in and going "cancel culture bad because people get their lives ruined for one joke they made decades ago" is A.) a grossly untrue exaggeration, B.) not really furthering the conversation at all, and C.) FAR from the unique and groundbreaking take that some people make it out to be


wokeupnew said:
Can you imagine what would have happened to Conor had that accusation came out today? oh boy. He'd never fully recover.
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I'm not attacking you personally for saying this @wokeupnew , but this is a line of thought that I see brought up multiple times in the "cancel culture" conversation that I think needs to be re-examined a bit more closely. For the career-wrecking monster that it's made out to be, plenty of celebrities and musicians have avoided "cancel culture"'s alleged destruction. How many people even remember that Maynard James Keenan had some accusations hurled his way just last year? What about Michael Gira of Swans? Or even more recently, what about Mitski? None of these artists were banished away into the shadows, or had their lives ruined, or were dropped from their labels, because the truth (or at least some pretty damning evidence) came out in their favor. As much as we like to talk about how "with the cancel culture nowadays, anyone who's ever accused of sexual assault just loses their career instantly, not like back in the old days" as if people who want to hold predatory public figures accountable aren't capable of ANY level of critical thinking. As long as Mitski is still ruling indie rock, Chris Hardwick is still hosting however many shows and podcasts he's doing nowadays, and Tool is still massively overrated by hundreds of thousands of music fans everywhere, I just can't buy into the exaggerated fearmongering that seems to surround "cancel culture"
 
in what world is sexual coercion not *that* bad?

Maybe before we start writing screeds about “cancel culture” and such, we think about what we are about to say and whether you personally would say that to someone/anyone you know who has been victimized or hell, just anyone.

It’s stuff like this that makes victims want to keep silent.

Just an idea.
 
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