Haha it’s good to know that my BA in History and Politics, with a particular leaning towards 20th century European history, didn’t go to waste. I remember some things, even if it’s 16 years since I used any of it
Black Lives Matter
- Thread starter gouis
- Start date
Haha it’s good to know that my BA in History and Politics, with a particular leaning towards 20th century European history, didn’t go to waste. I remember some things, even if it’s 16 years since I used any of it
This is a wonderful post! It really highlights that things do not exist in a vacuum, nor is anything or anyone all one thing and not the other. Nothing is that overly simplistic. The world is complex and nuanced.
Ethos99
Well-Known Member
Cant explain any better than Joe.
It is a good book and his life during war was filled with excesses that wont make you like him either. He continued dinner parties and social gatherings, drank and ate as before the war. Even going as far as falsifying kitchen supply orders when rationing was demanded of the people.
As a snapshot in time and historical relevance, its a good read.
I don’t think anything could stop him drinking, he was basically a high functioning alcoholic with a permanent buzz on for his entire adult life. How he made it to 90 is worth medical investigation!
sahomerrocks
Well-Known Member
"Camden as the model" often ignores that things got worse for the community before they got better after the police disbanded and reformed. It was only after further pressure from local activists to emphasize deescalation training that excessive force complaints dropped. Hopefully Minneapolis will learn from Camden's initial mistakes and listens to local leaders that have a stake in their community, but disbanding and reforming does not guarantee that will happen.
Dead C
Well-Known Member
When I posted what I did and left, I really did leave. A few people messaged me, but other than that... I didn't read ahead to see the responses... I just left. I got this email alert today and read it in my inbox before deleting it. I can break this down line by line and explain why I believe that general viewpoint is so often short sighted, offensive, shockingly hypocritical, dangerous, and even racist and victim blaming, but it takes a LOT of energy and, if I believed that everybody in here was genuinely open and receptive to other people's perspectives, then I probably wouldn't have left in the first place. I do, however, believe that you believe what you're saying is justified, right, and true. At the same time, I can tell you that it isn't -- at least it isn't, universally true; I can't speak for your friends. I can say that with complete certainty, because, in a lot of ways, you're speaking FOR me and others like me and that's why I'm commenting, because that is not only the most infuriating thing to deal with as an individual -- having others speak for and represent you incorrectly -- but that's also the heart of racism and white supremacy. I should acknowledge that you are specific about speaking for the people YOU KNOW and no one else. It is, however, a larger group of people that fall within that bracket of what you're describing, so I will speak for people like myself. Maybe it will even be productive. We'll see.
So... rather than post all of what I can, I'd rather ask you a simple question. Have you ever actually asked any of these people why they didn't want to vote for Clinton or why they aren't full throatedly accepting Biden right now? Have you actually asked them why, or do you simply believe that you already know? That it's because they are giving a "protest vote" elsewhere, or they want to "prove a point?" Have you actually looked at any of these people directly and sincerely inquired about their perspectives, or simply looked down at them, voter shamed them, and belittled them to your other friends with them in the room? I'm not saying you've done any of the other things, but I really want to know and I want to know if you've had civil conversations, or even cared to find out. When I ask this, I mean in a way that doesn't also have an element of accusation woven into it.
Biden was a major architect behind the system and legislation that killed George Floyd, as well as the current response of militarized police that continue to abuse us. He argued that black and brown children like myself were soulless "irredeemable" monsters that could not be reformed, who were coming to infiltrate pure white society and harm precious white women. He even admitted that he understood that it was his and others fault for building the foundation and system that "created them" but "it doesn't matter!" HIllary Clinton argued the same, calling us "super predators" without conscience who needed to be hunted down like animals and "brought to heel." I understand that, for you, it might be easy to write off as something they said that wasn't a big deal. Well.. fucking look outside. These people told others that I wasn't a human being, only a threat to be eradicated and, whether you're conscious of it or not, that's manifested itself and permeated everything within this society, including the fact that you believe that it's a non issue. Why wasn't it a big deal to you? And why is it so ignorant or idealistic of others to care about the things that are their daily existential crises? The things that affect their children and the ones that they love. Could that possibly have something to do with the fact that, their issues really aren't your concern, because they don't affect you? That would explain why they're so easy to write off as petty or something they don't really mean, but use to "make a point." Is it possible that these people aren't actually as ignorant and petty as you believe, but actually very well informed on what affects them, BECAUSE it affects them? How is that privileged? Is it possible that you are shaming victims for speaking up for themselves? I'm just asking if it's possible. That woman called the police on the birdwatcher in the park, because she could. Blue No Matter Who results in our Seattle Mayor, Jenny Durkan, turning this city into a police state, where they attack medics, are tracking protestors and pulling them from their homes, pepper spraying children, and gassing entire neighborhoods. I'm trying to figure out how that's a lesser evil.
I can post the Biden senate floor rant, but I won't, right now. Nobody wants this to be about politics and, for me, this is beyond politics -- it's more about pointing out how your decision to bring up politics in this group is divisive in itself. I doubt most people will read or watch what I'm about to post below, anyway, but if I post the Biden rant right now, I REALLY don't believe anybody wants to watch that, believe it, or view it for what it is. Just know that it is as racist as anything Trump has ever said. It's one of the most dangerously racist things I've ever seen come out of anyone's mouths, let alone a politician who is in the position to pass actual legislation based on those viewpoints and did. And this is the same guy who referred to Obama as the first mainstream clean, articulate black candidate in history, before entering the race to run against him. That video is a dog whistle through a megaphone. But again, there is no avoiding the political context of seeing Joe Biden, as he is running for president. So, instead, here is something different.
These two clips are short and they address race. You can view them politically, or you can view them as a human being through a human lens of human experience.
Van Jones is obviously a democrat, but he speaks some truths here. The full clip is in this link and it is VITAL, because it addresses all of this.
Van Jones: A ‘white, liberal Hillary Clinton supporter’ can pose a greater threat to black Americans than the KKK
CNN’s Van Jones argued Friday during an analysis on racial tensions that a “white, liberal Hillary Clinton supporter walking her dog in Central Park” can pose a more insidious threat to Afric…
thehill.com
This is only a small excerpt
Michelle Alexander is worth listening to just to listen to.
Oh... and this
MikeH
Well-Known Member
When I posted what I did and left, I really did leave. A few people messaged me, but other than that... I didn't read ahead to see the responses... I just left. I got this email alert today and read it in my inbox before deleting it. I can break this down line by line and explain why I believe that general viewpoint is so often short sighted, offensive, shockingly hypocritical, dangerous, and even racist and victim blaming, but it takes a LOT of energy and, if I believed that everybody in here was genuinely open and receptive to other people's perspectives, then I probably wouldn't have left in the first place. I do, however, believe that you believe what you're saying is justified, right, and true. At the same time, I can tell you that it isn't -- at least it isn't, universally true; I can't speak for your friends. I can say that with complete certainty, because, in a lot of ways, you're speaking FOR me and others like me and that's why I'm commenting, because that is not only the most infuriating thing to deal with as an individual -- having others speak for and represent you incorrectly -- but that's also the heart of racism and white supremacy. I should acknowledge that you are specific about speaking for the people YOU KNOW and no one else. It is, however, a larger group of people that fall within that bracket of what you're describing, so I will speak for people like myself. Maybe it will even be productive. We'll see.
So... rather than post all of what I can, I'd rather ask you a simple question. Have you ever actually asked any of these people why they didn't want to vote for Clinton or why they aren't full throatedly accepting Biden right now? Have you actually asked them why, or do you simply believe that you already know? That it's because they are giving a "protest vote" elsewhere, or they want to "prove a point?" Have you actually looked at any of these people directly and sincerely inquired about their perspectives, or simply looked down at them, voter shamed them, and belittled them to your other friends with them in the room? I'm not saying you've done any of the other things, but I really want to know and I want to know if you've had civil conversations, or even cared to find out. When I ask this, I mean in a way that doesn't also have an element of accusation woven into it.
Biden was a major architect behind the system and legislation that killed George Floyd, as well as the current response of militarized police that continue to abuse us. He argued that black and brown children like myself were soulless "irredeemable" monsters that could not be reformed, who were coming to infiltrate pure white society and harm precious white women. He even admitted that he understood that it was his and others fault for building the foundation and system that "created them" but "it doesn't matter!" HIllary Clinton argued the same, calling us "super predators" without conscience who needed to be hunted down like animals and "brought to heel." I understand that, for you, it might be easy to write off as something they said that wasn't a big deal. Well.. fucking look outside. These people told others that I wasn't a human being, only a threat to be eradicated and, whether you're conscious of it or not, that's manifested itself and permeated everything within this society, including the fact that you believe that it's a non issue. Why wasn't it a big deal to you? And why is it so ignorant or idealistic of others to care about the things that are their daily existential crises? The things that affect their children and the ones that they love. Could that possibly have something to do with the fact that, their issues really aren't your concern, because they don't affect you? That would explain why they're so easy to write off as petty or something they don't really mean, but use to "make a point." Is it possible that these people aren't actually as ignorant and petty as you believe, but actually very well informed on what affects them, BECAUSE it affects them? How is that privileged? Is it possible that you are shaming victims for speaking up for themselves? I'm just asking if it's possible. That woman called the police on the birdwatcher in the park, because she could. Blue No Matter Who results in our Seattle Mayor, Jenny Durkan, turning this city into a police state, where they attack medics, are tracking protestors and pulling them from their homes, pepper spraying children, and gassing entire neighborhoods. I'm trying to figure out how that's a lesser evil.
I can post the Biden senate floor rant, but I won't, right now. Nobody wants this to be about politics and, for me, this is beyond politics -- it's more about pointing out how your decision to bring up politics in this group is divisive in itself. I doubt most people will read or watch what I'm about to post below, anyway, but if I post the Biden rant right now, I REALLY don't believe anybody wants to watch that, believe it, or view it for what it is. Just know that it is as racist as anything Trump has ever said. It's one of the most dangerously racist things I've ever seen come out of anyone's mouths, let alone a politician who is in the position to pass actual legislation based on those viewpoints and did. And this is the same guy who referred to Obama as the first mainstream clean, articulate black candidate in history, before entering the race to run against him. That video is a dog whistle through a megaphone. But again, there is no avoiding the political context of seeing Joe Biden, as he is running for president. So, instead, here is something different.
These two clips are short and they address race. You can view them politically, or you can view them as a human being through a human lens of human experience.
Van Jones is obviously a democrat, but he speaks some truths here. The full clip is in this link and it is VITAL, because it addresses all of this.
Van Jones: A ‘white, liberal Hillary Clinton supporter’ can pose a greater threat to black Americans than the KKK
CNN’s Van Jones argued Friday during an analysis on racial tensions that a “white, liberal Hillary Clinton supporter walking her dog in Central Park” can pose a more insidious threat to Afric…
This is only a small excerpt
Michelle Alexander is worth listening to just to listen to.
Oh... and this
Thanks for the videos as well as your post. I have been watching more Michelle Alexander videos lately but have not seen that one. Same with Van Jones.
I did not mean for my post to come across how it did and I apologize for that. I also did not mean to speak for anybody broadly or try to put words in other peoples' mouths, so I am sorry if it came across that way. Reading it back, I see that it came across as shaming that particular person. I know that you aren't accusing anything and I absolutely understand your point about asking peoples' perspectives instead of assuming things. I have, in fact, asked the specific person I was talking about their perspective and why they chose to vote for who they voted for and genuinely wanted to understand where they were coming from. As this person posts a lot of political content, I wanted to know the reasoning behind their decision and have a civil conversation about it. None of what you mentioned was brought up at all. The person did not vote for Hillary because they "didn't like her" and couldn't give any specific examples why not. They do not want to vote for Biden, not because of his history or stances, but because they are pissed that Bernie did not win the nomination, which, fair enough. But when I asked the person if they wanted to volunteer with me to help get people registered to vote or volunteer for Bernie last year since I knew this person was a supporter of his, they had no interest. I see this common trend in people I know and it frustrates me in the moment. And when the "8 Can't Wait" topic came up, the discussion with this other person was fresh in my mind.
The political system is rigged by only really having 2 viable candidates when it gets to election time. And having the two candidates that we do in the ballot box in November seems like two awful choices. And maybe there's not as big a difference between Biden and Trump-- I just don't know what can be done about that between now and November and, in my mind, not voting doesn't seem to be the solution. I know there is no easy answer but we have to hope that public pressure can change at least some people in power while trying to get other down-ballot people who can help make change elected. We have already seen things like 50-A getting repealed in NY because of the protests but it goes without saying that there's a ton more to be done and not much can be done without the root cause being addressed.
Anyway...I appreciate ya calling me out on my post. I'm trying to be better about a lot of things and often consider other peoples' points of view in the moment. I also clearly need to research more, especially on the historical and political side. I'll try to be better about that in the future.
jaycee
Well-Known Member
@Dead C and @MikeH I'm jumping in here somewhat inappropriately. I feel like this is a convo between you two and thank you for that convo. I know this isn't the politics thread (thank goodness) but it is of course impossible to separate the issues of who gets to legislate and why and who that legislation is about and why. At any rate, I just wanted to add that dumping people into political groups whether that be 'blue no matter who' or 'never biden' might be useful to try and make a point in political conversation but is usually dramatically over-simplifying people's political stances and voting approach. This is just my opinion and based on nothing other than conversations I've had. I don't want to get into my own political stances with these candidates in this thread, but they are more complicated than either of those monikers would imply.
Just a personal story here. I'm friends with the security guard at my place of business. He's African American man born in the 1940's on the South Side of Chicago and had a career in journalism and is a documentary filmaker. We would get brunch once a month, prior to the pandemic, and we b.s. about politics, jazz, and the goings on in the world. I saw him yesterday and he was telling me how he was out getting people to register to vote at the protests over the weekend. The guy has a serious heart condition and diabetes and he was willing to put himself at risk to try and get people to vote, something he is passionate about. He was out all day and only got about 15 people but as he said it was better than nothing. He jokingly calls me a commie because he knows it pisses me off and he knows I have a problem with Biden as a candidate, but he gets to do that because he's one of the few people in this world on my team. I'm bringing this up because this is a man who's life was in no small way shaped by the murder and funeral of Emmet Till, has had the criminal unjustice system eat up and spit out his son, and who continues to make documentary films about African American history... and he's a staunch Biden supporter because as he sees it he's a pragmatist. I've asked him about that stance and part of it comes from a distrust of white people to vote for anything or anyone that threatens their wealth and part of it is becuase of the uprising of white nationalism during the Trump presidency. I'm relaying this mommy story just as a single example of one person's pragmatism being irresponsible to another and political name calling not fitting either.
I'm perhaps overly cynical and overly pessimistic of any politician's desire or ability to do anything positive for marginalized people because I came to understand a long time ago that the system (structure) was too willful and that the people who typically get to run for office beyond the local level must be of a certain level of privilege to do so. There have been historical exceptions to that rule but they are of course just that. I also firmly believe that the number one purpose of the police is to perpetuate that system.
I'm not sure what the intention of the thread here is beyond that people in the VMP thread didn't want to have a conversation about the music industry and the role of VMP in racial inequity so this one was created, but I do think there has been some attempt at a meaningful conversation here even if it has already failed numerous times and will probably ultimately be taken over by spam posting and political debate. Your convo is a good example of something meaningful. IF there is something positive happening in this moment in history, which I remain incredibly skeptical of, it's in no small part because some people are actually having a conversation with the intention of learning from each other instead of picking political teams, doing something to portray and image, or any other frivolous reason.
Just a personal story here. I'm friends with the security guard at my place of business. He's African American man born in the 1940's on the South Side of Chicago and had a career in journalism and is a documentary filmaker. We would get brunch once a month, prior to the pandemic, and we b.s. about politics, jazz, and the goings on in the world. I saw him yesterday and he was telling me how he was out getting people to register to vote at the protests over the weekend. The guy has a serious heart condition and diabetes and he was willing to put himself at risk to try and get people to vote, something he is passionate about. He was out all day and only got about 15 people but as he said it was better than nothing. He jokingly calls me a commie because he knows it pisses me off and he knows I have a problem with Biden as a candidate, but he gets to do that because he's one of the few people in this world on my team. I'm bringing this up because this is a man who's life was in no small way shaped by the murder and funeral of Emmet Till, has had the criminal unjustice system eat up and spit out his son, and who continues to make documentary films about African American history... and he's a staunch Biden supporter because as he sees it he's a pragmatist. I've asked him about that stance and part of it comes from a distrust of white people to vote for anything or anyone that threatens their wealth and part of it is becuase of the uprising of white nationalism during the Trump presidency. I'm relaying this mommy story just as a single example of one person's pragmatism being irresponsible to another and political name calling not fitting either.
I'm perhaps overly cynical and overly pessimistic of any politician's desire or ability to do anything positive for marginalized people because I came to understand a long time ago that the system (structure) was too willful and that the people who typically get to run for office beyond the local level must be of a certain level of privilege to do so. There have been historical exceptions to that rule but they are of course just that. I also firmly believe that the number one purpose of the police is to perpetuate that system.
I'm not sure what the intention of the thread here is beyond that people in the VMP thread didn't want to have a conversation about the music industry and the role of VMP in racial inequity so this one was created, but I do think there has been some attempt at a meaningful conversation here even if it has already failed numerous times and will probably ultimately be taken over by spam posting and political debate. Your convo is a good example of something meaningful. IF there is something positive happening in this moment in history, which I remain incredibly skeptical of, it's in no small part because some people are actually having a conversation with the intention of learning from each other instead of picking political teams, doing something to portray and image, or any other frivolous reason.
Dead C
Well-Known Member
Thanks so much for your response. I really didn't want to come across as attacking you. I respect you for asking your friend what he was thinking, because most people are definitely all about assuming and telling each other what their motivations are, rather than asking them. Your friend... I don't know what to say about them and their response. Either they aren't very good at verbalizing their positions or they are and they don't seem to have much of one.
We all kind of see the world through our own experiences and we all kind of take them as truth. Being someone on the other end of this particular issue, though, I've definitely heard the other perspective a LOT and I've also been told what my own was (to my surprise) more times than I can count. What's an existential crisis is subjective though. That's why we all get a vote. Some people can't afford their insulin, right now. Waiting on a solution really isn't something that is reasonable for them. People are murdered by police everyday. Waiting on someone else to determine when/if police reform is worth it, when they aren't as heavily or directly affected by it, doesn't always add up. No idea how the Flint water crisis is still going unaddressed. Instead, I'm watching political theater. Nancy Pelosi ripping up pieces of paper after approving Trump's military budget. How about getting those kids out of cages and reuniting them with their families? I don't know. None of these people are my heroes. Even RBG called Colin Kaepernick "dumb and disrespectful" for kneeling.
These protests are getting things done. Civil rights leaders and LBTQ activists and their allies are the ones that fought to achieve progress for themselves with things like the Stonewall Riots. Those are acts against the government, not simply achievements because of it. They pushed for results.
I don't understand the concept of running for the most powerful position in the world on the platform of being unwilling to change anything. Those that desperately need help are essentially told to deal with it, because people who are doing well are doing well, and the people who are doing well are recruited to wag their fingers at those who aren't and need more. Pragmatism presupposes that things can't be achieved, due to the powers that be, while running to become that power, which you've already determined will reject these propositions. It's a self fulfilling prophecy, a snake eating its own tail. Whether you are on the side that believes in it, or the side that doesn't, or somewhere in between, it's not something that electrifies the masses. How are you going to sell, "we can't do anything, things won't get better" enthusiastically, while telling people it's urgent to achieve nothing. I know there are other factors, but it doesn't inspire much enthusiasm. And again, some would argue that the far left "isn't realistic" and only wants false promises. Then you can argue that you still have to offer something... it continues.
All I can really say about this incremental change and a need for patience is that impatience is what we're watching right now. But it's not simply impatience, it's people who have remained patient for way too long as promises are NEVER delivered.
Our city council had a meeting yesterday where they discussed putting a vote on the docket to stop using chemical weapons and attacking medics. This is just a vote to see if they'll vote on it next week. Crazy, right? That's bureaucracy. How about stop assaulting your constituents right now?! They have to vote on if they can wait a week to vote on if they should continue to commit war crimes on their own citizens? What happens in the meantime? They had to vote on submitting a proposal to make cops turn on their body cameras and stop blocking their badge numbers. Seriously. NPR already did an interview putting the mayor on the spot for that on June 1st and she said she's look into it. How about we stop letting folks like the Koch brothers and defense contractors and big pharma affect policy, now? Simply put, a lot of this stuff isn't stuff people can wait for. It's no different than sending people stimulus checks and putting eviction moratoriums in effect once people are already out on the streets and starving. It might be more urgent than that. But, to bring this back around to BLM and civil rights, these are things that both MLK and Malcolm X warned us about.
Anyone who has never read MLK's Letter From A Birmingham Jail can find it HERE. This is just one small excerpt.
"We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."
Then there's Malcolm
And, of course, there's always the Thug Life profit, Tupac
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Dead C
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that post and that story. This is kind of what I was hoping to get at, but... to tell the truth, I typed and then deleted so much, I'm not sure what I posted, in the end.
Since you brought it up, I want to clarify that I have no judgments against the Blue No Matter Who crowd, if that's a stance or approach that they want to adhere to for themselves. I completely understand why someone would come to that conclusion. It's similar to how I have no issues with hardcore bible thumping Christians. The conflict only comes into play when someone accosts me on the street with a massive sign to tell me that I'm going to burn in hell and gays are the devil and all that hateful shit. I'm rarely in a position where I'm working to convince anyone that I, somehow, own their vote, or that they should agree with me. I am, however, often in positions where I'm challenged to defend the right to my own voice or dissenting opinion. Similarly, I've never worked at a store and pushed a white guy back out the door as he stepped through, while telling him that he couldn't come in. That has happened to me, before, though. In other words, I do have a problem with people that push me, not because of who they are, but what they do. I'm totally cool with any other tweaker working at a 24hr Baskin Robbins, just not the one that put his hands on me. BNMW all day. Just stop trying to get me to blindly pledge myself to anything.
Just wanted to clarify that. Feel free to do hot rails off a bucket of pralines n cream with no judgments from me.
I'd like to believe that everyone in this group has some sort of commonality. I think race is a big enough concept to explore without any additional bullshit. I feel like, when things seem serious, there might be a tendency to look for "serious" solutions. You just shared an experience and perspective in your comment, and that seemed more valuable to me than reading statistics. The truth is that establishing a space where people can share perspectives and what's important to them and why is probably going to be the most effective and productive thing you could do in most situations. If this is all about awareness, then we have to be willing to accept there are things we might not be aware of. That's where other people come in.
jaycee
Well-Known Member
I don't know exactly where my lines are with this stuff. Even without accosting someone I think there is a mental imposition and danger imposed on others. I've become less accepting about an individuals right to ignorance when that ignorance is harmful to others. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong and I'm sure I'm hypocritical when I want to be. I don't know, but I do judge and some people can fuck right off because of whatever their condition is, whatever their ism is, and whatever their 'truth' is. I don't think redemption is a possible outcome for everyone. Often times tho, as I think you've pointed out, the ability to ignore or vocalize that judgement is because of the protection of a tailwind that our society provides to white people.
I mostly agree. I think that sharing experiences as open and honestly as possible is probably more important, at least in the moment. I also think that measuring something like inequity is important. There is a danger in numbers, as you've alluded to, because there is a tendency to try and remove the experience or feeling from the equation to solve some problems in an unbiased way, but the people trying to do so don't necessarily see themselves as part of the problem they are trying to solve...and can a problem that is about inequity and a lack of justice really be addressed in an unbiased, compromising manner? I don't think so. Essentially what ends up happening is an academic white-washing of the black and brown experience, which manifests itself in policy failures / "alien autopsy" syndrome you mentioned earlier.
Evidence has traditionally been a numbers game, a measurements game, which is important, but what some people are starting to learn is that isn't the only line of evidence that is necessary when creating frameworks for equitable / useful policy decisions. Basically voices need to be in the room and their experiences need to be listened to and interpreted in some way to improve institutional decisions. That interpretation needs to be shared back to the voices to see if it makes sense to them before decisions are made. I think there is some evidence that flow of information can lead to better decision making, but it's new, hasn't trickled its way down to most institutions or individuals, and hasn't been applied well or well enough to the wants and needs of marginalized people... and can an institution that is built on defending an unjust system be made just? I personally doubt that too.
I'm not so sure everyone here has a commonality and I'm less sure that this forum is a safe space for these conversations, but it's what we have and I'm somewhat hopeful that people will keep share their thoughts and experiences.
Dead C
Well-Known Member
My response was specifically to your comments about whether or not there is more nuance to the positions of "blue no matter who" or "never biden" specifically. Keep in mind, I don't need to get into another argument and l've been trying to avoid dumping a ton of political shit in here. What I'm saying is that you have a right to your own vote. That's it. And if your point is that people may not recognize when they are part of the problem on a given issue, then determining whether or not they are "ignorant" might not be our place.
My issue with Blue No Matter Who isn't that the people saying it have determined they will quietly vote that way across the ticket, it's when they've decided that I am the ignorant one they cannot tolerate if I consider anything else. They've, somehow, decided that I have zero nuance in my position because I research and weigh information and perspectives, rather than saying "this is my position regardless of anything that happens. I support this color, regardless of policy or candidate. You can literally be a republican billionaire behind stop and frisk with a slew of sexual misconduct charges. Just put on the blue tie. " I'm the stubborn, ignorant one with dangerous viewpoints who isn't thinking about the effects for the future, and one of my biggest offenses is looking at a 50 year record of history while currently living in the results -- some of which are the direct effect of things I was chastised for raising issue with when they could have been prevented.
The angry burn in hell Christians have concluded that I am ignorant and a sinner and need to be threatened and terrified and harrassed into taking their side. It's the same thing with politics. They blame me as the existential threat, so often in the process accusing others of selling out their own people, being responsible for mass deaths and the very injustices that they are more connected to and affected by. The Hillary shame wagon was targeting disadvantaged people with accusations of being the privileged demographic because they didn't line up behind identity politics and white feminism, while spending the last 4 years engaging in political theater redirecting the blame with conspiracy theories pushing the narrative that the real issue is whoever leaked information about their corruption rather than the corruption itself. That's the equivalent of my wife finding out that I cheated on her and leaving me, so the sole focus is on blaming my friend who told her as being the cause of ruining my marriage, without taking any accountability. And when it looks like they didn't even do that, I start blaming the hotel I went to.
Do I think BNMW is a counterproductive position to take before the primary even jumped off? Of course I do. Your vote it your only leverage, so why pledge your vote in advance to make the statement that you will support them no matter what they do or who they throw at you and honestly believe that's going to produce anything other than the worst possible option. The DNC admitted in court that they rigged the last primary and Clinton essentially purchased the entire organization while using the mainstream media as her own PR firm. But, they are private organization, so... deal with it. The solution is to tell them it's totally cool to do that again, because it's the fault of anyone that wasn't cool with it, not the organization that did it and the machine behind it.
Do I think that's ignorant and dangerous? I personally do, but I also know that other people are going to read that and think I'm ignorant and dangerous. Even though they've admitted it themselves and it's easy to find that information -- it's documented by the courts, as well as... well, they said it themselves -- I'm still told THAT is the real conspiracy theory. So, we have two different viewpoints and two different factions. I completely understand the idea of voting what you believe is the better more pragmatic move. I'm reading articles now where pundits have said Biden could literally rape them in the streets or boil and eat babies and they'd vote for him. Have we crossed over the line yet?
So, from my position, is there nuance in screaming at me for years unprovoked just because you know that I'm not into partisan politics? Is BNMW an action or a viewpoint. Does that make sense? Follow whatever you believe to be the best and most appropriate action with your vote. What I believe doesn't matter. But, it should matter for my own vote. I believe the DNC is responsible for Trump along with a BNMW position. Some people seem to think it's Jill Stein voters. What are you going to do?
How can we march to demand police accountability, while trying to sell the idea that voting matters, if you are simultaneously against accountability for those that write and pass the legislation? How can we all claim to believe that our racism is systemic, but reject the proposition of tearing down that system?
I just unloaded some shit here and, at this point, I'm, admittedly, lost in my own rant. But even these things that I'm saying aren't about telling people not to vote or who to vote for. They're about how you're right that you can't always reduce someone else's position to nothing and strip it of nuance and then attack them. My words are essentially about saying "fuck off and leave me alone already." I'm not walking into any churches telling people they need to walk out. They have their spaces. But I'm accosted on all sides, non stop. And they are doing it, whether simply under the guise or a genuine belief that I'm ignorant and dangerous. But while this is inarguably political, I am giving you my experience as a brown man being regularly blamed for the plight of brown people by upper class white people.
I should add that even the idea of in-fighting suggests that we are all "on the same side" even when people are asked to abandon their own identities, causes, and beliefs to pledge themselves into it. I'm good friends with Isis Aquarian of the Source Family and... this is basically cult mentality. The mindset seems to be that all GOP is evil, deplorable, racists. Everyone else is "our" team. We own the black and gay vote, so... no need to do anything substantial for them. If they get out of line, shame them and reign them in. Oh! We own independents somehow, too. We've just decided that.
To tie this all back together, I believe there are probably 3 or so different groups of people in here, but even then there is overlap and nuance. For me, it's all about intent and sincerity. Some want a more hardcore exploration into systemic racism and their role in it. Some want to discuss their own experiences and hear others. Some want to be able to point at the extremely low bar of a Donald Trump and be seen stepping over it, to be better than their racist grandma or friend from high school. You're right, it's always going to be a mix. Different people need different things, too. "Commonality." You may be right. Maybe there isn't. Maybe there should be though. Just be sincere about it. Ego and sincerity are enemies of each other. (Maybe they aren't, but it sounds good, right?)
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jaycee
Well-Known Member
Honestly I'm just kind-of baffled why you chose to anchor this to my post which wasn't even about what you perceived it to be about. While I agree with much of what you're stating, I don't understand why it was anchored to one line and I don't understand why some feelings I was posting about people accosting others with their personal truths or isms while being ignorant of the potential impacts of their actions was taken out of context.
I appreciate all of the thought you are putting in here, but I feel like what I was talking about is completely unrelated to your response.
I'm open to a DM if you want to discuss
With regard to your comments about sincerity and intent in this thread, I think we are coming from different worldviews. My experience in life has been that some people are incapable of sincerity. Some of those folks recognize they're incapable of sincerity and most don't. Some people perceive their intent as positive without recognizing what their intent is about or where it comes from. For me those are fundamentally dangerous human behaviors and over the years I've seen some examples in the forum that fulfills my own confirmation bias. I'm not speaking for anybody else. Just relaying a personal perspective and not trying to impose it on anyone.
Also, just for the record, rarely when I say anything here am I looking for people to agree or disagree with me. I'm open to all of that interaction but my posts are generally not seeking validation in that way. I still think this would be a better world without emojis. I'm much more interested in people valuing each others ideas, thoughts, and experiences (including my own) so I think you and I are roughly coming from the same place there.
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Selaws
Well-Known Member
I can see there's a back and forth going here so apologies for breaking the flow, but just thought it a good time to post. There's a British rapper/activist/journalist/author here in the UK called Akala. I suppose he came to the attention of most people in the early 2000's when he started releasing his conscious-rap (on an interesting side-note his sister is Ms. Dynamite). He's an INCREDIBLY clever person and has an expert knowledge of Black History. His ability and yearning to learn and read everything before making an opinion is aspiring. My girlfriend put it well when she said you could ask him a question about headaches and he would read and learn everything he could about the human brain before answering you.
My reason for bringing him up is because, especially in the current climate, his knowlege and views is something a lot of people would likely benefit from (he backs everything up with facts and statistics). He released an award-winning book in 2018, Natives: Race and Class in the Ruins of Empire, which I have heard is well worth the read (I will get a copy when it comes back in stock at my local) and also has a fascinating 1hr16min Q&A session as part of the Oxford University talk series which is well worth watching regardless if you are from the UK or USA:
Finally, he is just now wrapping up a really eye-opening Q&A on Instagram (he said he has saved them to his stories on his page) where he gives his opinions on a lot of the situations currently occurring in the USA and UK (not sure how to link that but his name is akalamusic on Instagram and on his page you can see a series of circles with these talks saved).
My reason for bringing him up is because, especially in the current climate, his knowlege and views is something a lot of people would likely benefit from (he backs everything up with facts and statistics). He released an award-winning book in 2018, Natives: Race and Class in the Ruins of Empire, which I have heard is well worth the read (I will get a copy when it comes back in stock at my local) and also has a fascinating 1hr16min Q&A session as part of the Oxford University talk series which is well worth watching regardless if you are from the UK or USA:
Finally, he is just now wrapping up a really eye-opening Q&A on Instagram (he said he has saved them to his stories on his page) where he gives his opinions on a lot of the situations currently occurring in the USA and UK (not sure how to link that but his name is akalamusic on Instagram and on his page you can see a series of circles with these talks saved).
Dead C
Well-Known Member
I just used the first line of your comment to respond to you, so that I wouldn't max out the character count by having your whole quote in there. That's why, if you look at the quote, you'll notice that I added ellipsis. I probably should have just tagged you, I guess, but don' read too much into it.
There's an irony in your post being all about perceiving something incorrectly, when you're using the way that I shortened your quote as the jumping off point.
All that I'm doing is responding over and over to try and clarify things that I'm saying, which are being brought back to me and misinterpreted.
I left this thread. Then, I got an email that felt like it was offering a perspective about my viewpoint and motivations that was inaccurate. Because I saw that it was from Mike and I see him as a genuinely receptive person, I came back and tried to address where I saw that and how it didn't represent my own personal positions. You posted something tagging me, after I brought up "blue no matter who" to tell us that you don't think that position should be overly simplified. Ok. I never said that, though. I said that a lot of people are using that position to dismiss and over simplify my own. They can vote however they want and I won't judge them. I'm just going to need those specific people who do call on BNMW for that purpose to stop doing it to me.
That's it. That's essentially my entire position here.
I never came here to tell anyone else how to feel. I came here to ask that others stop explaining to me how I feel. Just don't speak for me. That's all. My comments were only about that. Mike and I came to some level of understanding in a couple of posts. That was that. Go read the context of when you entered into this and how. It was essentially, over. To be honest, I have absolutely no idea what your intentions are, at this point, either. That was literally a conversation about me trying to straighten out any misconceptions about my own personal feelings and intentions. That's not really something debatable.
I just reread some of what I posted in the comment you're responding to and I noticed that I mentioned that "I don't need to get into another argument." The internet is a shit form of communication and tone can be lost, so I want to make it clear that wasn't about "arguing" with you. What I was saying is that, if things aren't coming across clearly, it might partly be because I've been trying to avoid opening particular cans of worms that lead to getting into shit with others, where I see nothing other than a dead end. I may be dancing around certain things that I'm trying not to get into, in general.
When I asked MIke if he's ever asked his friend WHY he held the positions that he did, I asked that for a reason. If the problem is presupposing that we know each other's stances and motivations without even asking, then we might need to employ some humility of our own. It would be nice if this was a space to openly discuss these things without ego, and with enough sincerity to allow for that understanding and receptiveness of each others positions to thrive. I could be wrong, and I don't want to assume anything for you, but it seems like what you are discussing is whether or not you believe it's possible to achieve that, and not whether or not that would be the most productive and ideal environment IF it was possible. It also sounds as if you're skeptical about the idea that there is enough sincerity in intent for that to thrive here, at least within this format. If that is where you're coming from, then I don't see how we are even in opposition here. Do you believe that if I wasn't skeptical, I would have left in the first place? I would hope that you also recognize that, if I thought you were completely full of shit, then I wouldn't be responding to you with this post, right now, either.
So springer nature put up a page with "A collection of books, journal articles and magazine content that amplifies Black voices and the issues raised by the Black Lives Matter movement" . They all seem to be freely downloadable.
www.springernature.com
Black lives matter | Springer Nature | For Researchers | Springer Nature
We seek to amplify Black voices with our collection of research insights. Topics cover Social Inequality & Systemic Racism, Policing Race & Civil Unrest, Racism & Oppression, Health Disparities and Gender.
www.springernature.com
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Verso books has put up a lot of ebooks about policing for free as well:
www.versobooks.com
Long, Hot Summer Reading
The long, hot summer refers to the one hundred and fifty-nine race riots that erupted across the United States in 1967. In this moment of insurrection against racist police violence and massive racial inequality, we bring you books that offer critical analysis of white supremacy, push forward...
www.versobooks.com
ayayrawn
Well-Known Member
I'm reading the end of policing now. A fascinating and disturbing read.Verso books has put up a lot of ebooks about policing for free as well:
Long, Hot Summer Reading
The long, hot summer refers to the one hundred and fifty-nine race riots that erupted across the United States in 1967. In this moment of insurrection against racist police violence and massive racial inequality, we bring you books that offer critical analysis of white supremacy, push forward...
wokeupnew
Well-Known Member
I'm definitely going to have to crack open my Kindle (lol) that I haven't used in years for some of these!Verso books has put up a lot of ebooks about policing for free as well:
Long, Hot Summer Reading
The long, hot summer refers to the one hundred and fifty-nine race riots that erupted across the United States in 1967. In this moment of insurrection against racist police violence and massive racial inequality, we bring you books that offer critical analysis of white supremacy, push forward...
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Yea I found a Kindle lying around and started The End of Policing. Tried to buy the book at my local book store but they were all out of it.