Black Lives Matter

[Thackeraye]

As anticipated....Morgan is now all for 'heroes' with racist pasts to be named and shamed

View attachment 50887

He's horrible. The most depressing thing for me was that he was the only journalist giving the government a proper kicking over the Covid disaster. When Piers Morgan is leading the field on questioning the government you know you're in trouble.

 

[resik]

Do cities like Minneapolis have a plan for what to do with the current cops once the department has been dismantled? I have basically two trains of thought about this:

1. Seems like mass layoffs of people working in the public sector could be economically destabilizing, even if it's deserved. I'm assuming pensions will be grandfathered in, so a lot of these guys will continue to be on the dole for quite some time, but only once they reach retirement. For some that might be soon, but for many, "ex-cop" may start looking pretty unattractive on a resume. What's the next best career for a police officer? What might some of the worst of them gravitate toward so that they can recreate the fraternity? What industry do we need to keep an eye on next to ensure this kind of corruption doesn't bleed through? What will prevent our 'bad apples' from being re-hired into different public capacities so that the racism is still in the system, just more diffuse (and presumably without the authorized use of force, which is huge)?

2. Further to the above, isn't taking a group of hyper-protective, vindictive, violent people like this, and suddenly putting them out of work, an extremely dangerous thing to do? How do we keep these people, whose numbers already contain plenty of overt racists, from further radicalizing once their identities as representatives of the state have been removed? If you cut off state sponsorship of a gang, do you need to worry about that gang retaliating? I'm just taking a guess here, but I would imagine that even if police were defunded nationwide, we'd see a sustained spike in stories of ex-cops killing people extra-judicially for quite some time. Easier to prosecute, maybe (assuming the ripple effect of defunding policing doesn't cripple prosecutors offices in the short term), but still devastating in terms of loss of life. It'd be a real irony if the defunding of police is the thing that ends up leading to gun control measures gaining more popularity, although the opposite will likely happen, this being America. I think I fear that we may trade police for an even more heavily armed citizenry.

None of those are reasons not to do it, and I assume people have already given this some thought, it's just a concept that I'm still wrapping my brain around.

Right now, no there isn’t any detail about what policing in Minneapolis will look like going forward.

Camden, after disbanding their police, rehired a good portion of their officers as well as hiring (I think) 100 additional new officers. I would venture the decrease in violence means the layoffs didn’t have any negative effects regarding retaliation.

It’s always been a problem that bad cops can be rehired in different PD’s. Between the reassessing of what policing should be across the country (and hopefully ending QI) the loopholes for assholes sticking around should be closed. But I don’t think we’ll really get anywhere without ending QI and limiting police unions to just pay and benefits.

 

[dhodo]

Right now, no there isn’t any detail about what policing in Minneapolis will look like going forward.

Camden, after disbanding their police, rehired a good portion of their officers as well as hiring (I think) 100 additional new officers. I would venture the decrease in violence means the layoffs didn’t have any negative effects regarding retaliation.

It’s always been a problem that bad cops can be rehired in different PD’s. Between the reassessing of what policing should be across the country (and hopefully ending QI) the loopholes for assholes sticking around should be closed. But I don’t think we’ll really get anywhere without ending QI and limiting police unions to just pay and benefits.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if any police that can't get rehired in some capacity just move to a different department somewhere else. That seems the most likely outcome to me.

 

[gouis]

I find this whole "8 Can't Wait" kerfuffle fascinating.

Seemingly some people were spending a decent amount of time and effort trying to improve police forces in ways they thought were achievable. I don't know all the details but it seems like they were working on this for months if not years.

Now the conversation has shifted towards much more radical steps and they are seen as "neolib sellouts".

What rubs me the wrong way (at least on my "internet") is that it's a bunch of white progressive people who only seemingly have started thinking about police brutality recently, constantly dunking on a black guy who came up with a imperfect solution because before now no one thought large scale changes were possible.

 

[jaycee]

I find this whole "8 Can't Wait" kerfuffle fascinating.

Seemingly some people were spending a decent amount of time and effort trying to improve police forces in ways they thought were achievable. I don't know all the details but it seems like they were working on this for months if not years.

Now the conversation has shifted towards much more radical steps and they are seen as "neolib sellouts".

What rubs me the wrong way (at least on my "internet") is that it's a bunch of white progressive people who only seemingly have started thinking about police brutality recently, constantly dunking on a black guy who came up with a imperfect solution because before now no one thought large scale changes were possible.

Thanks for saying this.

I've been loosely observing this too. There's a lot to unpack here in-terms of the current left progressiveness, but just grossly oversimplifying here... if you are 1. not listening to what black community members think and want you are participating in the oppression you say you're against, 2. if you are leveraging the black experience, that isn't your own, to put forth your personal political agenda you are also participating in that oppression, and 3. you're probably not as smart as you think you are.

I don't know how much trolls of various political ilk are pushing these things and how much of it is just how narrow the perspective of progressives has become, but it's definitely irritatingly ignorant. The what's good for my goose is good for everybody's gander is one of the many reasons our 2020 presidential voting choices are what they are.

 

[dhodo]

I find this whole "8 Can't Wait" kerfuffle fascinating.

Seemingly some people were spending a decent amount of time and effort trying to improve police forces in ways they thought were achievable. I don't know all the details but it seems like they were working on this for months if not years.

Now the conversation has shifted towards much more radical steps and they are seen as "neolib sellouts".

What rubs me the wrong way (at least on my "internet") is that it's a bunch of white progressive people who only seemingly have started thinking about police brutality recently, constantly dunking on a black guy who came up with a imperfect solution because before now no one thought large scale changes were possible.

FWIW, I have seen a ton of pushback from the portion of the black and latinx community who is for defunding and abolishing the police

At least some of their point is that plenty of reforms have been made and completed in the past and little has changed. They are also all mad that the 8 can't wait is listing statistics like reducing people killed by police by 72% as they see anything less than 100% reduction as the goal to be unacceptable.

 

[ranbalam]

I ventured to Facebook (I know, I really need to stop) and there is a flood of 'white privilege doesn't really exist' posts from a certain faction of people I know. Wow man. Like, certain people are trying so hard to shoot down BLM and so many other facets of this by saying 'my grandparents were poor white immigrants' and throwing around 'reverse racism.'
This one is just awful:
"White privilege is a myth perpetuated by those who hate white people."
I can't argue, I need to just look away and work on myself.

Honestly, I don't unfriend these folks because I feel the need to check the temperature of the other side once in awhile. I can't say it's entertaining, but it's certainly eye opening.

 

[Teeeee]

I ventured to Facebook (I know, I really need to stop) and there is a flood of 'white privilege doesn't really exist' posts from a certain faction of people I know. Wow man. Like, certain people are trying so hard to shoot down BLM and so many other facets of this by saying 'my grandparents were poor white immigrants' and throwing around 'reverse racism.'
This one is just awful:
"White privilege is a myth perpetuated by those who hate white people."
I can't argue, I need to just look away and work on myself.

Honestly, I don't unfriend these folks because I feel the need to check the temperature of the other side once in awhile. I can't say it's entertaining, but it's certainly eye opening.

The absolute unresearched, not based in fact, racist, homophobic, misogynistic blither some of these people spout is the reason I left FB. It was not good for my mental health.

There is no such thing as reverse racism. And I don't even know what to say to people that believe there is. How do you get through to that kind of willful ignorance?

 

[Joe Mac]

The absolute unresearched, not based in fact, racist, homophobic, misogynistic blither some of these people spout is the reason I left FB. It was not good for my mental health.

There is no such thing as reverse racism. And I don't even know what to say to people that believe there is. How do you get through to that kind of willful ignorance?

Me too, 2016 and the whole brexit referendum was tough in a similar way probably to the whole Trump thing your side. Seeing people you knew as 9 and 10 year olds in school all of a sudden go full on nasty xenophobe wasn’t fun. Had to drop out of Facebook completely for a while and I now go on about once a month and check just my brothers account to see if he’s posted pictures of my niece & nephew

 

[gouis]

FWIW, I have seen a ton of pushback from the portion of the black and latinx community who is for defunding and abolishing the police

At least some of their point is that plenty of reforms have been made and completed in the past and little has changed. They are also all mad that the 8 can't wait is listing statistics like reducing people killed by police by 72% as they see anything less than 100% reduction as the goal to be unacceptable.

I’m not even saying I agree with it. Just that the amount of glee I see from people dunking and criticizing someone who is trying to help is gross.

 

[ranbalam]

The absolute unresearched, not based in fact, racist, homophobic, misogynistic blither some of these people spout is the reason I left FB. It was not good for my mental health.

There is no such thing as reverse racism. And I don't even know what to say to people that believe there is. How do you get through to that kind of willful ignorance?

I know, I just can't get through to people on that stuff.

If I didn't have a band, Facebook would be 90% useless to me and I'd probably stop visiting the site altogether and just ask people, like my distant cousins for example, to email me stuff they post like pics of their family, etc...there's not many good reasons to be there anymore.

But yet; I go, I scroll, I get pissed. And repeat.

 

[dhodo]

I’m not even saying I agree with it. Just that the amount of glee I see from people dunking and criticizing someone who is trying to help is gross.

I get what you mean, and while I agree that there isn't anything constructive about dunking on DeRay, I do think the people against 8 can't wait have some good points.

I've seen a lot of people making a lot of assumptions and hedging already, as I mentioned earlier, saying all the people are really asking for is reform, not what is actually coming out of their mouths and I don't think that is constructive either. I don't think it's reasonable to ask the more radical activists, who have also been around for a long time, and are finally being taken more seriously and covered by some news outlets to get behind 8 can't wait when they don't agree with it.

I'm trying not to pick a side of those two, but remain respectful of those who are more educated than I am and I see value in listening to what the more radical minded than 8 can't wait have to say, even if it doesn't seem as "realistic" to me, which strikes me as maybe that instinctual mindset I have is more part of the problem than the solution.

 

[gouis]

I get what you mean, and while I agree that there isn't anything constructive about dunking on DeRay, I do think the people against 8 can't wait have some good points.

I've seen a lot of people making a lot of assumptions and hedging already, as I mentioned earlier, saying all the people are really asking for is reform, not what is actually coming out of their mouths and I don't think that is constructive either. I don't think it's reasonable to ask the more radical activists, who have also been around for a long time, and are finally being taken more seriously and covered by some news outlets to get behind 8 can't wait when they don't agree with it.

I'm trying not to pick a side of those two, but remain respectful of those who are more educated than I am and I see value in listening to what the more radical minded than 8 can't wait have to say, even if it doesn't seem as "realistic" to me, which strikes me as maybe that instinctual mindset I have is more part of the problem than the solution.

I feel like those divisions were always there, and those people totally have the right to criticize.

My issue is the people who heard of it just last week, and are now "OBVIOUSLY THIS IS BULLSHIT" when they might have even been tweeting the hashtag 5 days earlier.

 

[MikeH]

I feel like those divisions were always there, and those people totally have the right to criticize.

My issue is the people who heard of it just last week, and are now "OBVIOUSLY THIS IS BULLSHIT" when they might have even been tweeting the hashtag 5 days earlier.

I can only speak to people that I know on Facebook that I grew up or went to college with...but there’s this phenomenon in the past few years with a lot of white people on my Facebook that it’s either burn the entire system down or bust. There’s no in between and if you’re against burning everything down, then you’re part of the problem. They don’t seem to understand that “burning everything down” will affect other people way worse than it will affect them. As soon as some new protest happens, these people jump on to support it without even really understanding what the protest is about.

I try not to get in arguments with people on Facebook unless they are really out of line but sometimes I do engage and question things when I feel like someone is just trying to say something to be “radical” and appear woke instead of actually being informed. One white guy I went to college with today posted something about Biden saying he doesn’t support “defunding the police” and the guy’s commentary on it was “If Biden wins there need to be massive protests on Inauguration Day because of this!” I asked him what defunding the police entailed, how it works, what it is replaced with and he couldn’t answer. He says 8 can’t wait isn’t a big enough change but he didn’t know what the specifics of that plan were. He was a Bernie supporter who says he will refuse to vote if Biden is the nominee and if the DNC makes Biden the candidate, he hopes Trump wins again just to prove a point to the DNC. It’s pretty infuriating to see people react this way. I get it—I didn’t want Biden either but saying you hope Trump wins shows an utter lack of understanding of what is going on and how drastically 4 more years of Trump would affect people other than himself. Even more so lately, all his posts are in support of BLM and defunding the police, yet he wants Trump to win again to prove a point to the DNC that Biden is too centrist for him.

In the past few years it seems, everybody thinks they are an expert in everything and it’s creating a culture of in-fighting. We saw this happen last election between people who refused to vote for Hillary. I had hoped some people learned a lesson but I still see people saying they refuse to vote if it’s Biden. It seems that the current political climate doesn’t let there be a gray area anymore...you’re either with someone or against them and there can’t be an honest discourse if your views don’t align. Pragmatism in an argument appears to be dead. This seems to be happening on the left all the time and it’s why not a lot seems to get done at times. I know it’s now part of the political climate though but don’t know how to break that. That’s why I was a bit shocked to see Newt Gingrich appear in the 13th—he’s one of the creators of the current day political climate and a big reason why things are so bad and contemptuous.

 

[gouis]

I can only speak to people that I know on Facebook that I grew up or went to college with...but there’s this phenomenon in the past few years with a lot of white people on my Facebook that it’s either burn the entire system down or bust. There’s no in between and if you’re against burning everything down, then you’re part of the problem. They don’t seem to understand that “burning everything down” will affect other people way worse than it will affect them. As soon as some new protest happens, these people jump on to support it without even really understanding what the protest is about.

I try not to get in arguments with people on Facebook unless they are really out of line but sometimes I do engage and question things when I feel like someone is just trying to say something to be “radical” and appear woke instead of actually being informed. One white guy I went to college with today posted something about Biden saying he doesn’t support “defunding the police” and the guy’s commentary on it was “If Biden wins there need to be massive protests on Inauguration Day because of this!” I asked him what defunding the police entailed, how it works, what it is replaced with and he couldn’t answer. He says 8 can’t wait isn’t a big enough change but he didn’t know what the specifics of that plan were. He was a Bernie supporter who says he will refuse to vote if Biden is the nominee and if the DNC makes Biden the candidate, he hopes Trump wins again just to prove a point to the DNC. It’s pretty infuriating to see people react this way. I get it—I didn’t want Biden either but saying you hope Trump wins shows an utter lack of understanding of what is going on and how drastically 4 more years of Trump would affect people other than himself. Even more so lately, all his posts are in support of BLM and defunding the police, yet he wants Trump to win again to prove a point to the DNC that Biden is too centrist for him.

In the past few years it seems, everybody thinks they are an expert in everything and it’s creating a culture of in-fighting. We saw this happen last election between people who refused to vote for Hillary. I had hoped some people learned a lesson but I still see people saying they refuse to vote if it’s Biden. It seems that the current political climate doesn’t let there be a gray area anymore...you’re either with someone or against them and there can’t be an honest discourse if your views don’t align. Pragmatism in an argument appears to be dead. This seems to be happening on the left all the time and it’s why not a lot seems to get done at times. I know it’s now part of the political climate though but don’t know how to break that. That’s why I was a bit shocked to see Newt Gingrich appear in the 13th—he’s one of the creators of the current day political climate and a big reason why things are so bad and contemptuous.

Hear hear!

 

[Dirtbag Auntie]

I’m not sure if this has been posted.

Activists Create Public Online Spreadsheet of Police Violence Videos

slate.com

Here’s the google doc cataloging videos of police attacking protestors and police violence. You are not seeing these on the news.

GeorgeFloyd Protest - police brutality videos on Twitter - Google Drive

docs.google.com

 

[Teeeee]

I’m not sure if this has been posted.

Activists Create Public Online Spreadsheet of Police Violence Videos

slate.com

Here’s the google doc cataloging videos of police attacking protestors and police violence. You are not seeing these on the news.

GeorgeFloyd Protest - police brutality videos on Twitter - Google Drive

docs.google.com

Wow. This is amazing work. And scrolling through incident after incident is pretty powerful.

 

[Memo]

How do I read historical books about a specific time when I know the person who the book is about was a hardcore racist?
I'm conflicted. It's the book about Winston Churchill and the period of The Blitz, where millions of british were under terror of Nazi Germany.

I want to read it to see what and how a leader was able to endure that type of attack on their own soil and the emotional and physical toll on a country... but he was also a hardcore racist and I don't want to read it because of that. So how do I navigate that? Can I read it with the knowledge of him being a racist, and not using 'whatever' he accomplished as a pardoning tool to excuse his behavior?

 

[Joe Mac]

How do I read historical books about a specific time when I know the person who the book is about was a hardcore racist?
I'm conflicted. It's the book about Winston Churchill and the period of The Blitz, where millions of british were under terror of Nazi Germany.

I want to read it to see what and how a leader was able to endure that type of attack on their own soil and the emotional and physical toll on a country... but he was also a hardcore racist and I don't want to read it because of that. So how do I navigate that? Can I read it with the knowledge of him being a racist, and not using 'whatever' he accomplished as a pardoning tool to excuse his behavior?

He was much more again, he actually set the army on striking workers in his own country too. Churchill basically viewed anyone other than the elite class of British society as unworthy.

I think with historical figures you have to view them as products of their time and place. Churchill’s views on race and social class were repugnant and shouldn’t be celebrated, they should be condemned, wherever possible. They were however normal amongst his class and position in society at the time, he was perhaps even at the more liberal end of that particular type of person. That also doesn’t mean that his leadership of the UK during the majority of WWII and his stance against fascism, which stretched right back to its earliest incarnations in the 20s, weren’t remarkable and worthy of study and celebration.

The good doesn’t excuse the bad in the slightest and can’t be used as redemption as there is little evidence that it changed his bigoted positions. The bad, however, doesn’t cancel out the good either and we can’t have a proper understanding of such a pivotal point in the modern history without having an understanding of his role in it and the importance of his leadership of the UK during it.

TLDR: life’s bloody complicated, deletion of historical figures doesnt work!

 

[Memo]

He was much more again, he actually set the army on striking workers in his own country too. Churchill basically viewed anyone other than the elite class of British society as unworthy.

I think with historical figures you have to view them as products of their time and place. Churchill’s views on race and social class were repugnant and shouldn’t be celebrated, they should be condemned, wherever possible. They were however normal amongst his class and position in society at the time, he was perhaps even at the more liberal end of that particular type of person. That also doesn’t mean that his leadership of the UK during the majority of WWII and his stance against fascism, which stretched right back to its earliest incarnations in the 20s, weren’t remarkable and worthy of study and celebration.

The good doesn’t excuse the bad in the slightest and can’t be used as redemption as there is little evidence that it changed his bigoted positions. The bad, however, doesn’t cancel out the good either and we can’t have a proper understanding of such a pivotal point in the modern history without having an understanding of his role in it and the importance of his leadership of the UK during it.

TLDR: life’s bloody complicated, deletion of historical figures doesnt work!

Thank you, you explained it very well.