Your Fave is Problematic

Well-meaning people fall for and repeat bad faith arguments. Whether we like the fact or not, a majority of public discussion about protecting children that is expressed specifically in regards to the LGBTQ+ community/issues is done in bad faith by conservative and anti-trans groups. If you feel like being a thought leader or making a proclamation on these subjects and you happen to make a comment that resembles anti-trans talking points, it’s going to be dicey for you (dicey as in you’ll get negative criticism/consequences but you’ll also get positive support from people that might be, uh, an interesting group to court).
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Pretty sure the counterargument here is that plenty of teenagers already know who the fuck they aren't.
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Sure. But again, the gender blockers have a lot of irreversible effects, and teenagers brain's are still developing. There are a shit ton of things you aren't allowed to do before you are 18, and a ton of things I did at even 19 that I look back and shake my head at. The argument is simply that it's something that should wait until adulthood.

If you want to argue I'm wrong, I'm fine with that. Just how I'm fine with you thinking my progressive economic stances are wrong. And my stance on this issue isn't even that strong. Certainly isn't as strong as my belief that Neoliberalism and free market economics ruined this country.

But I definitely think it's something that should be an open conversation and that attempts to call her stance problematic and / or the fact that Ninja Tune isn't even going to promote the album after her comments are dumb as hell.
 
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Melt Face Molly Drop said:
As a parent, I still don't know the stance I'll choose to take with my own kids. It's a difficult topic that should be approached with care and not the kneejerk reactions I see everywhere else.
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1000%. See the second half of my comment to @Indymisanthrope. The thing I really take issue with is attempts to cancel an artist who is a historic ALLY of the LTGB community for attempting to have a conversation about a complicated issue.

The other day, a female friend who is 7-10 years younger than me called it homophobic when we saw two straight girls making out at a club. Which then started a huge conversation that is still ongoing between the two of us. My main point to her though, is that calling such a thing homophobic (as opposed to just immature or in bad taste) discounts the context of the past 20 years of progress and, imo, misses the forest for the trees.

As a long time activist, I'm really sick of the progressive left eating itself. It the biggest barrier we face in attempts to shift paradigms. Because all of the neoliberals are united as hell on their economic stances and the right has a propaganda machine pumping misinformation and anger 24/7 to unite them.

I mean, fuck dude, almost all of my mom's best friends are gay and she met my dad through his lesbian roommates. She was the one taking me to drag shows. She has been a LONGTIME ally. But a couple of years ago some Gen Z kid screamed at her for accidentally misgendering them instead of having a conversation about it. My mom has raw nerves and hates being screamed at due to a rough childhood. Ever since then, she has had very clear animosity towards the trans community. Not in that she doesn't support their right to do what they want, but in that she has lost any interest in hearing out conversations about pronouns, thinks its dumb and writes it off as Gen Z being "silly".

I guarantee you if that person had simply said, hey, I prefer ___ and here why, my mom would have wound up in a long conversation during their plane ride together and would be attempting to explain that viewpoint to her more conservative neighbors. But nope, the left has to eat itself, because too many people fail to see the importance in coalition building.
 
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DownIsTheNewUp said:
1000%. See the second half of my comment to @Indymisanthrope. The thing I really take issue with is attempts to cancel an artist who is a historic ALLY of the LTGB community for attempting to have a conversation about a complicated issue.

The other day, a female friend who is 7-10 years younger than me called it homophobic when we saw to straight girls making out at a club. Which then started a huge conversation that is still ongoing between the two of us. My main point to her though, is that calling such a thing homophobic (as opposed to just immature or in bad taste) discounts the context of the past 20 years of progress and, imo, misses the forest for the trees.

As a long time activist, I'm really sick of the progressive left eating itself. It the biggest barrier we face in attempts to shift paradigms. Because all of the neoliberals are united as hell on their economic stances and the right has a propaganda machine pumping misinformation and anger 24/7 to unite them.

I mean, fuck dude, almost all of my mom's best friends are gay and she met my dad through his lesbian roommates. She was the one taking me to drag shows. She has been a LONGTIME ally. But a couple of years ago some Gen Z screamed at her for misgendering them instead of having a polite conversation. My mom has raw nerves and hates being screamed at due to a rough childhood. Ever since then, she has had very clear animosity towards the trans community. Not in that she doesn't support their right to do what they want, but in that she has lost any interest in hearing out conversations about pronouns, thinks its dumb and writes it off as Gen Z being "silly".

I guarantee you if that person had simply said, hey, I prefer ___ and here why, my mom would have wound up in a long conversation during their plane ride and would be attempting to explain that viewpoint to her more conservative neighbors. But nope, the left has to eat itself, because too many people fail to see the importance in coalition building.
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I agree with you mostly, but with these circumstances with Roisin and in the UK as a whole, so much of the trans debate is based around bad faith. It's misinformation and discrimination reframed as "diversity of thought". Graham Lineham, who she was agreeing with in the post she got flamed for, has called it nazi eugenics. Then in her "apology" she said she has actually never aimed her music at any demographic and that she has "fixed views". Wouldn't blame people for thinking her previous LGBT support was a bunch of hot air.

I'm all for the left uniting, when they're actually left, and opening debating, when it's actually relevant and not just to subliminally be a piece of shit. Celebrities and politicians in the UK seemed determined to prove that millionaires being called TERFs are the true victims, and not the group of people with some of the highest suicide rates in the world they're trying to legislate out of existence. I don't buy it.
 
ayayrawn said:
I agree with you mostly, but with these circumstances with Roisin and in the UK as a whole, so much of the trans debate is based around bad faith. It's misinformation and discrimination reframed as "diversity of thought". Graham Lineham, who she was agreeing with in the post she got flamed for, has called it nazi eugenics. Then in her "apology" she said she has actually never aimed her music at any demographic and that she has "fixed views". Wouldn't blame people for thinking her previous LGBT support was a bunch of hot air.

I'm all for the left uniting, when they're actually left, and opening debating, when it's actually relevant and not just to subliminally be a piece of shit. Celebrities and politicians in the UK seemed determined to prove that millionaires being called TERFs are the true victims, and not the group of people with some of the highest suicide rates in the world they're trying to legislate out of existence. I don't buy it.
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Appreciate the context and agree that bad faith arguments are (always) an issue with the right.

However, in her apology she says "I understand fixed views are not helpful". So that example comes across as further overreaction from the left, or at least, one devoid of context.

The demographics part is a bit iffier. Lots of good stuff about how her music has always aimed for inclusivity with a sentence in the middle that seems, ironically, cynical considering she knows damn well her importance within the gay community.

www.nme.com

What did Róisín Murphy say about trans rights and why is it so controversial?

Róisín Murphy has been criticised online for a statement she posted after fans unearthed a comment about the use of puberty blockers.
www.nme.com www.nme.com
 
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Also, contrary to the onslaught of right wing propaganda, the overwhelming medical concensus is that puberty blockers are safe and effective for use with regards to teansgender and gender-nonconforming young people. Of course circumstances will vary, but it's worth researching!
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Sure. But again, the gender blockers have a lot of irreversible effects, and teenagers brain's are still developing. There are a shit ton of things you aren't allowed to do before you are 18, and a ton of things I did at even 19 that I look back and shake my head at. The argument is simply that it's something that should wait until adulthood.

If you want to argue I'm wrong, I'm fine with that. Just how I'm fine with you thinking my progressive economic stances are wrong. And my stance this issue isn't even that strong. Certainly isn't as strong as my belief that Neoliberalism and free market economics ruined this country.
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I don't think you're wrong, per se. I just don't love the argument that one should be required to wait until adulthood to make decisions about therapies designed to alter the way one develops into adulthood. It's circular logic, and I do think it borrows the framing of the right with some alarmist "won't someone think of the children" moralizing that is hard to apply universally.

I'm not supportive of handing out this kind of therapy like it's candy. It doesn't make sense to let children 'experiment' with something this significant. But I'm also aware of research that says lots of trans kids know exactly what's up when they're essentially still toddlers, and they never waver from that position.

Puberty is hard enough for cis folks who ARE comfortable with their sex assigned at birth, you know? If my 3 year old told me today said that he is actually a girl, and held that position for the next decade, what would I do? I don't know. I'd like to think that I'd investigate our options, seek out the best supportive care, and after lots of discussions and serious thought, make parental decisions that leave my child feeling loved and accepted with the least amount of additional undue hardship. Tough spot to be in and I don't envy any parent that has to make those choices. My son is in a daycare class with another child who I think IS trans, and I don't know how their parents will navigate all of this stuff and frankly it's something I'm relieved, in a way, that I don't have to do. But I do think that the inclination to deny families the opportunity to access this sort of medicine is a copout. It seems like an easy solution to those of us for whom puberty didn't represent an undesirable outcome; I've known I wasn't a girl for my whole life, and nobody ever told me I didn't know what I was talking about. I've known I wasn't bi or gay for my whole life, and no one has ever told me I was wrong. I've known that I'm not an extrovert, that I don't like beets, that I'm not into sports, that I'm not righthanded, forever -- and no one has ever said I need to wait until I'm 25 before I can be sure that those things won't change.

tldr: IYKYK. Why isn't that enough?

But I have literally no opinion on Roisin Murphy (I recognize the name and that's the limit of my knowledge of her) or any statements she's made, or the resulting backlash. I'm completely ignorant of all of that and how it does or does not reflect on progressive culture.
 
ayayrawn said:
Also, contrary to the onslaught of right wing propaganda, the overwhelming medical concensus is that puberty blockers are safe and effective for use with regards to teansgender and gender-nonconforming young people. Of course circumstances will vary, but it's worth researching!
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Yeah, I mean, safe is different than having long term effects that are hard to reverse should a person want to.

Also, as somebody who was on a whole pharmacy's worth of drugs as a teenager for ADHD and a very incorrect "bi-polar" diagnosis (because I had a half-hearted suicide attempt)... and now has health problems as an adult and while more than a couple of those drugs are no longer on the market... safe when it comes to big-pharma is a relative term.

For example, this article claims the effects are reversible but seems to phrase things in a way that indicates that means after short term use and then turns around and says "Although puberty blockers are frequently described as “fully reversible,” more research is needed to fully understand the impact they may have on fertility. There is also little known about the drugs’ lasting effects on brain development and bone mineral density".

www.healthline.com

The Effects of Puberty Blockers Are Non-Permanent: 14 FAQs

The effects of puberty blockers are not permanent, whether the medication is being used to treat precocious puberty or as a part of gender affirming care.
www.healthline.com www.healthline.com

And this one calls it safe but these potential long-term side effects:

  • Lower bone density. To protect against this, we work to make sure every patient gets enough exercise, calcium and vitamin D, which can help keep bones healthy and strong. We also closely monitor patients’ bone density.
  • Delayed growth plate closure, leading to slightly taller adult height.
  • Less development of genital tissue, which may limit options for gender affirming surgery (bottom surgery) later in life.
  • Other possible long-term side effects that are not yet known."

Puberty Blockers

Our Transgender Center offers puberty blockers, which can delay and help prevent unwanted changes like breast growth, facial hair, periods and voice deepening.
www.stlouischildrens.org www.stlouischildrens.org

And yes, I'm vaccinated ;)
 
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Indymisanthrope said:
I don't think you're wrong, per se. I just don't love the argument that one should be required to wait until adulthood to make decisions about therapies designed to alter the way one develops into adulthood. It's circular logic, and I do think it borrows the framing of the right with some alarmist "won't someone think of the children" moralizing that is hard to apply universally.

I'm not supportive of handing out this kind of therapy like it's candy. It doesn't make sense to let children 'experiment' with something this significant. But I'm also aware of research that says lots of trans kids know exactly what's up when they're essentially still toddlers, and they never waver from that position.

Puberty is hard enough for cis folks who ARE comfortable with their sex assigned at birth, you know? If my 3 year old told me today said that he is actually a girl, and held that position for the next decade, what would I do? I don't know. I'd like to think that I'd investigate our options, seek out the best supportive care, and after lots of discussions and serious thought, make parental decisions that leave my child feeling loved and accepted with the least amount of additional undue hardship. Tough spot to be in and I don't envy any parent that has to make those choices. My son is in a daycare class with another child who I think IS trans, and I don't know how their parents will navigate all of this stuff and frankly it's something I'm relieved, in a way, that I don't have to do. But I do think that the inclination to deny families the opportunity to access this sort of medicine is a copout. It seems like an easy solution to those of us for whom puberty didn't represent an undesirable outcome; I've known I wasn't a girl for my whole life, and nobody ever told me I didn't know what I was talking about. I've known I wasn't bi or gay for my whole life, and no one has ever told me I was wrong. I've known that I'm not an extrovert, that I don't like beets, that I'm not into sports, that I'm not righthanded, forever -- and no one has ever said I need to wait until I'm 25 before I can be sure that those things won't change.

tldr: IYKYK. Why isn't that enough?

But I have literally no opinion on Roisin Murphy (I recognize the name and that's the limit of my knowledge of her) or any statements she's made, or the resulting backlash. I'm completely ignorant of all of that and how it does or does not reflect on progressive culture.
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Yeah, I'm not going to push back on any of this. Good stuff. As I said, it's a complicated issue.
 
avecigrec said:
This is not what I wanted to spend my Friday night reading...

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I was thinking about you when the story first surfaced Thursday morning, because you've been a champion of native american music on here. There wasn't much information until the fifth estate aired that night, and even now with all the facts I still don't really know what to think about any of it. The spotlight can't be good though.
 
Turbo said:
I was thinking about you when the story first surfaced Thursday morning, because you've been a champion of native american music on here. There wasn't much information until the fifth estate aired that night, and even now with all the facts I still don't really know what to think about any of it. The spotlight can't be good though.
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Yeah, I have a lot of messy feelings in a lot of directions about this.
 
avecigrec said:
Yeah, I have a lot of messy feelings in a lot of directions about this.
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Especially with that reaction/defense of her. I think there are lots of reasons to be legitimately angry at her over this, but being honest she probably did do more good for the tribe than harm over her life even though that doesn't excuse or in any way justify her actions. It's just especially hard to stomach that she was in a role model position, and while I think there are a lot of dumb uses of the concept of cultural appropriation, this is exactly what is meant by it in the most fucked up sense.
 
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