Kanye

[MikeH]

I just wonder if people's assessment of his art will change as he reveals himself to be more vacuous. It's an interesting question, to me: people want thought-provoking art to come from people who have something insightful or profound to express. What does it mean for art to be great or influential if the person who created it is just an empty vessel for inspiration?

^That question is far from being unique to Kanye. It reminds me of this Black painter here in Indianapolis, who paints these sort of otherworldly depictions of Black subjects that all seem like they have some sort of mythology behind them. Like this one:

I think his work is beautiful and fascinating, and I've looked at buying one of his paintings a couple of times. And then I followed him on IG and discovered that he's a bizarre libertarian/rightwing jagoff who says his paintings are about things like pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and not taking handouts.

They're not about that; they can't be about that. Look at it. How can he not realize that he's wrong about the meaning of his own work? But who can tell him that? He painted the damn things. It's nearly ruined his work for me altogether.

Separate art from artist? Maybe. I can get with theories that the author is dead and that intent is meaningless because impact on the audience is the only thing that matters. But finding out that an artist is a dispshit can certainly refocus your view of what the value of the art was in the first place.

Art is and always be subjective though...if that is what it means to that artist, then that's what it means to that artist. In this case, i's stupid and may be something you disagree with, but it's still their meaning and almost makes it more interesting to me. I completely understand not wanting to give financial support based on their statements though. There are lots of artists whose personal lives have been a mess, have done despicable things, etc. I mean...hell...David Bowie went through his whole The Thin White Duke period where he expressed sympathy for Hitler and Nazis and later blamed those on drugs and said he was playing a character...

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying Kanye is an idiot while also admitting that he's an extremely influential producer.

 

[Jonathan Y]

Kanye can't run for president because he isn't doing any of the steps needed. He is just using the shock to promote. It's the same ploy he used to release TLOP. Facts was one of the early singles and when he said 2020 Ima run the whole election it sent ppl in a tizzy. Then he went on the MTV VMAs and said listen to the kids bro, but never intended to actually run yet. He is doubling down to promote JIK2 and God's Country.

He did however get a few hundred thousand to register to vote yesterday by tweeting a link out

 

[MikeH]

I'll take MF Doom's discography for that title in the 00s, personally. Kanye's influence may be wider reaching due to popularity, but for me personally, that's secondary.

If we're saying influential, I would 100% agree that Kanye is most influential from his era. Doom is amazing, but Kanye's production was more influential and far-reaching than Doom's. I personally think Kanye is a pretty awful rapper but an incredible producer.

 

[dhodo]

If we're saying influential, I would 100% agree that Kanye is most influential from his era. Doom is amazing, but Kanye's production was more influential and far-reaching than Doom's. I personally think Kanye is a pretty awful rapper but an incredible producer.

I guess it depends on where you value the influence the most. As I said, I can't deny that Kanye's influence is further reaching, but in the underground scene, I'm not sure it would be true that everyone owes more to Kanye than those other names I listed.

I agree with you on his production being his strong suit and I don't disagree that he is a great producer. For me personally, it is hard to say he is definitively the best/greatest of his generation though.

 

[dhodo]

I guess it is really hard to compare directly. Kanye did the majority of the production on his great albums (I think?), Which you certainly can't say for all of DOOM's, even though he is a great producer. Which is impressive. So I guess it becomes harder to argue against if the claim is that Kanye is the greatest of his generation to be majority responsible for the production and rapping on his albums.

 

[Woob_woob]

I just wonder if people's assessment of his art will change as he reveals himself to be more vacuous. It's an interesting question, to me: people want thought-provoking art to come from people who have something insightful or profound to express. What does it mean for art to be great or influential if the person who created it is just an empty vessel for inspiration?

^That question is far from being unique to Kanye. It reminds me of this Black painter here in Indianapolis, who paints these sort of otherworldly depictions of Black subjects that all seem like they have some sort of mythology behind them. Like this one:

I think his work is beautiful and fascinating, and I've looked at buying one of his paintings a couple of times. And then I followed him on IG and discovered that he's a bizarre libertarian/rightwing jagoff who says his paintings are about things like pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and not taking handouts.

They're not about that; they can't be about that. Look at it. How can he not realize that he's wrong about the meaning of his own work? But who can tell him that? He painted the damn things. It's nearly ruined his work for me altogether.

Separate art from artist? Maybe. I can get with theories that the author is dead and that intent is meaningless because impact on the audience is the only thing that matters. But finding out that an artist is a dispshit can certainly refocus your view of what the value of the art was in the first place.

Arts meaning is in the eye of the beholder imo. We can give meaning to art independent of the artist that created it. Yes an artist can easily help shape that meaning in a multitude of different ways, some good, some bad and sometimes (like with Kanye) it's both. Is Kanye the man who has donated millions to liberal causes over the years or is he the man that thinks slavery was a choice and Planned Parenthood is doing the devil's work? I like to think it's more of the former, (probably because I'm a long time fan of his art) but I cant lie and say his newer work isnt stained because of the latter.

 

[Indymisanthrope]

.if that is what it means to that artist, then that's what it means to that artist. In this case, i's stupid and may be something you disagree with, but it's still their meaning and almost makes it more interesting to me.

Yeeeeeeeaaah, I know what you mean....he's still wrong though

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying Kanye is an idiot while also admitting that he's an extremely influential producer.

Sure, absolutely. What I'm really getting at here isn't questioning whether he's been influential -- that much is clear -- but whether we continue to automatically let people influence us because they are influential, in sort of tautological loop. We let some artists have a greater impact on us when we consider their work to be important or because we expect it to have influence on us. Is the Kanye who is making music in 2020 great because he's influential, or is he influential because he's great?

 

[Woob_woob]

I'll take MF Doom's discography for that title in the 00s, personally. Kanye's influence may be wider reaching due to popularity, but for me personally, that's secondary.

I think you could make some arguments production wise for El-P and Madlib as well, but that's a different group I guess if we're talking rapper/producers instead.

Doom has one of the best 3 year runs of all time, but Kanyes discography as a whole is still better imo. Also I'd much rather listen to an elp or madlib beat, but Kanye is more "important" than both combined.

 

[dhodo]

Doom has one of the best 3 year runs of all time, but Kanyes discography as a whole is still better imo. Also I'd much rather listen to an elp or madlib beat, but Kanye is more "important" than both combined.

I guess I have a hard time gauging that importance past subjective personal preference. I think you can find a lot of people like me who don't think that Kanye has more than 4 truly great solo albums, some believe even less, and obviously many people who think he has a lot more.

Dude is a great producer, hugely influential, I'll not argue that he isn't a great musical mind. But I think he has been graded on a curve for a long time now and everything he is in the news for does affect my desire to enjoy his music.

 

[MikeH]

I guess it depends on where you value the influence the most. As I said, I can't deny that Kanye's influence is further reaching, but in the underground scene, I'm not sure it would be true that everyone owes more to Kanye than those other names I listed.

I agree with you on his production being his strong suit and I don't disagree that he is a great producer. For me personally, it is hard to say he is definitively the best of his generation though.

I'm not trying to say that one person had a more valuable/better influence. I'm just saying that Ye influenced an entire genre of music like nobody else. And he did it multiple times. His ability to reinvent his sound is really impressive no matter how you slice it. I love Madlib and Doom but both guys have a lane and stick to it. Not hating on them at all--they are extremely good at that lane, so I don't see any reason for them to change it.

I guess it is really hard to compare directly. Kanye did the majority of the production on his great albums (I think?), Which you certainly can't say for all of DOOM's, even though he is a great producer. Which is impressive. So I guess it becomes harder to argue against if the claim is that Kanye is the greatest of his generation to be majority responsible for the production and rapping on his albums.

You could definitely argue that Doom as a rapper is way more influential than Kanye's rapping. I think Andre 3000 is up there too for most influential rappers. But I think you're conflating personal preference for the music vs more objective view of the widespread influence Kanye had on rap music.

 

[MikeH]

everything he is in the news for does affect my desire to enjoy his music.

Fair enough for sure. I don't get as excited about his new music as I once did. But for some reason, his antics haven't really made me dislike his back catalogue.

 

[Woob_woob]

But for some reason, his antics haven't really made me dislike his back catalogue.

Same. For me personally I think this is because he was a different person back then, still weird and controversial but in a much less crazy right wing way. Also his back catalog is fantastic, which helps.

 

[gaporter]

The thing about trying to have a discussion about Kanye is inevitably his stans will butt in and start deflecting if you try to say something about his work that they disagree with. Kanye's public image is so intertwined with his music it makes it difficult to "separate the art from the artist" as it were. I haven't watched Anthony Fantano in a long time but one thing he said about MBDTF in his controversial review has at least a little bit of truth to it; if you don't care about Kanye's personal life or his widely publicized antics then a lot of the albums impact is lost. And as time goes on, I care less and less about Kanye's shenanigans and the music hasn't been good enough to make me want to stick around, and, in the case of Jesus is King, really only adds to the weird aura around Kanye.

I think Kanye is an immensely talented artist but he and his fans have built up this destructive ideal of the "troubled genius" who has a few screws loose but produces great works of art despite or even because of that. I think theres something to be said for someone not being afraid to be flawed and human in their art, but anytime someone shows concern or suggests Kanye needs help, it gets twisted by his fans into an attempt to suppress his artistic vision or something like that. It makes me feel like some people want Kanye to go off the deep end solely for their entertainment and don't really care about him as a person, a mindset that's unfortunately become commonplace to a lot of entitled people who live their life on Twitter. They call themselves fans but just want new music and that's it, mental health be damned.

 

[Benhawaii]

i think the thing here is that firstly, this person is unfortunately obviously mentally ill. and im not trying to paint him in a negative light - just the facts. somehow his (and the family he's with) have this crazy detached lifestyle that encourages it and enables his odd behavior. im guilty too since the more press or spotlight we give these folks the worse its going to get. as a people it would be great (but naive) to expect us to honor regular hard working folks and values instead of reality shit shows that do nothing but make us believe we need to be more like that instead of ourselves. i mean shit; we have a fucking kanye thread for fucks sake, lol. as divided as this country is right now im hoping it leads to new brands of thinking, challenging authority positively, and practicing love and compassion. i really feel sorry for kanye instead of my knee jerk reaction. he seems to have everything anyone could want and its clearly not enough. and theres probably nothing but suck ups and sycophants encouring his behavior while he writes checks all day long. youll always see it from mike tyson, michael jackson, mc hammer etc. if the well dries up they'll leave his ass like roaches under a bright light.

 

[whatwhatsaywhat]

the american system is so bizarre that you could definitely see a write-in candidate like kanye somehow garnering enough electoral college votes to command the presidency

quite frankly, after trump, nothing would surprise

 

[Woob_woob]

if you don't care about Kanye's personal life or his widely publicized antics then a lot of the albums impact is lost.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but this couldnt be further from the truth imo. I really dont care about Kanyes personal life and still love his music.

 

[Indymisanthrope]

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but this couldnt be further from the truth imo. I really dont care about Kanyes personal life and still love his music.

These comments—maybe even this whole thread—are a really interesting window into how people naturally gravitate to different modes of literary criticism.

 

[whatwhatsaywhat]

These comments—maybe even this whole thread—are a really interesting window into how people naturally gravitate to different modes of literary criticism.

isn't it just a case of separating the art from the artist?

something that's required across the history of popular music, with paedophiles, murderers, and absolute reprobates making some fab music

 

[Indymisanthrope]

separating the art from the artist

Necessary to consider the artist in certain modes of criticism.

 

[Benhawaii]

you dont see anyone trying to show off or buy those hitler paintings. in kanyes case hes not obviously this bad. but hes current and im not in the habit of supporting someone financially when its clear his self-indulgent ideology is wacky at best.

isn't it just a case of separating the art from the artist?

something that's required across the history of popular music, with paedophiles, murderers, and absolute reprobates making some fab music