Kanye

Benhawaii said:
you dont see anyone trying to show off or buy those hitler paintings. in kanyes case hes not obviously this bad. but hes current and im not in the habit of supporting someone financially when its clear his self-indulgent ideology is wacky at best.
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firstly, yr comparing crap paintings with an undoubted legend of music

secondly, godwin's law invoked; discussion OVER!! :p
 
Benhawaii said:
just out of curiosity and for context,

what are your top ten all time hip hop records?
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The question wasn't posed to me, but it made me think about how I would answer it because I agree with @whatwhatsaywhat here. And Kanye was involved on 5 of my top 10 and shows up in 9 of my top 20 albums. So yeah, Kanye does define hip-hop for me in a lot of ways haha What that says about me, I'm not too sure (maybe it's a generational thing?). I'm definitely one who separates the art from the artist. I'm sure my list doesn't line up with most others, but here's my top 10:

1. Nas - Illmatic
2. Common - Be
3. Kanye West - Late Registration
4. The Notorious B.I.G. - Ready to Die
5. Wu-Tang Clan - Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)
6. Lupe Fiasco - Lupe Fiasco’s The Cool
7. Jay-Z - The Blueprint
8. Mos Def - Black on Both Sides
9. The Game - The Documentary
10. Kanye West - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy
 
Benhawaii said:
just out of curiosity and for context,

what are your top ten all time hip hop records?
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hmmmmmmmm, tough q.....it depends on what you consider hip-hop, i guess? cos for me, the likes of the avalanches, dj shadow, and massive attack etc. are part of the broad spectrum of what 'hip-hop' entails and so the likes of since i left you, endtroducing and mezzanine would be right up there

but limiting to 'rap' only, off the top of my head (more or less), i would definitely have these in the conversation in terms of from late 80s, when i first heard rap music, to nowish, as a top ten:

kendrick lamar - to pimp a butterfly
outkast - speakerboxxx / the love below
common - be
kanye west - my beautiful dark twisted fantasy
nas - illmatic
missy elliott - miss e
beastie boys - paul's boutique
public enemy - fear of a black planet
dr dre - the chronic
public enemy - it takes a nation of millions

plus i have a soft spot for the geto boys - we can't be stopped but it's more sentimental affection than recognising it as a straight-up piece of genius
 
MikeH said:
I personally think it's difficult to say that Kanye hasn't been a huge influence on current hip hop, whether you like him/his music or not.
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I was mostly kidding and don’t disagree. I just think “undoubted legend” is a big description for somebody who is barely halfway into their career. Not saying it won’t end up being true. It’s just early in the story to say that the legacy is cemented for good.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I was mostly kidding and don’t disagree. I just think “undoubted legend” is a big description for somebody who is barely halfway into their career. Not saying it won’t end up being true. It’s just early in the story to say that the legacy is cemented for good.
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It's a bit of hyperbole, but he's definitely a part of the cultural zeitgeist. I also think it's fair to say he has at least 5 certifiable classic albums at this point which is impressive no matter who you are.
 
Even if Kanye only ever made 808s & Heartbreak, he'd still be one of the most influential artists of the last two decades. The Weeknd, Drake and countless others have their careers thanks to that album, Kanye basically gave birth to a new generation of rappers with 808s alone, for better or worse. The man is a bad quotes factory, but his influence on music can't be understated.
 
gaporter said:
Even if Kanye only ever made 808s & Heartbreak, he'd still be one of the most influential artists of the last two decades. The Weeknd, Drake and countless others have their careers thanks to that album, Kanye basically gave birth to a new generation of rappers with 808s alone, for better or worse. The man is a bad quotes factory, but his influence on music can't be understated.
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A lot of people were pretty confused by 808s when it came out. The only reason people even gave it the time of day was because it was by Kanye West, and that already meant something because of the track record he'd been building. If it was the only album he ever made, I think it's equally likely that none of us would even know who he is today.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
A lot of people were pretty confused by 808s when it came out. The only reason people even gave it the time of day was because it was by Kanye West, and that already meant something because of the track record he'd been building. If it was the only album he ever made, I think it's equally likely that none of us would even know who he is today.
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It was critically panned when it first came out, but it was an impressive feat. It has since influenced TONS of albums and artists as @gaporter said. This is also a weird way to look at it since you could say this about just any other artist. If Paul McCartney only made Ram, nobody would know who he is today.

I whole-heartedly understand why people dislike Kanye, but at this point (mostly due to his own antics) it almost feels as if he's underrated. Recency bias (and his more recent albums) has not been kind to his legacy hah.
 
MikeH said:
It was critically panned when it first came out, but it was an impressive feat. It has since influenced TONS of albums and artists as @gaporter said. This is also a weird way to look at it since you could say this about just any other artist. If Paul McCartney only made Ram, nobody would know who he is today.
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Well yeah -- that's also true. I don't think @gaporter probably meant for me to take that as literally as I did. Just getting back to my original argument that I think we conflate influence with greatness, to the point where they become inseparable. Is 808s a great album? It was influential. Is that the same thing? Again, those aren't questions that are unique to Kanye at all, I just think he's an interesting prism to look at them through.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Well yeah -- that's also true. I don't think @gaporter probably meant for me to take that as literally as I did. Just getting back to my original argument that I think we conflate influence with greatness, to the point where they become inseparable. Is 808s a great album? It was influential. Is that the same thing? Again, those aren't questions that are unique to Kanye at all, I just think he's an interesting prism to look at them through.
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I agree. I think debating greatest and most influential are very different. Clearly one's subjective opinion of the artist's albums and the albums that their influence led to can lead to very different options of the level of greatness.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Well yeah -- that's also true. I don't think @gaporter probably meant for me to take that as literally as I did. Just getting back to my original argument that I think we conflate influence with greatness, to the point where they become inseparable. Is 808s a great album? It was influential. Is that the same thing? Again, those aren't questions that are unique to Kanye at all, I just think he's an interesting prism to look at them through.
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I personally really love 808s hah. It weirdly got better with age for me because I think it was a bit ahead of it's time. I don't think great and influential are mutually exclusive and that's the thing about music..."great" is subjective for everyone. I don't think you really argue with influential though. I can't see any possible argument for those who say he was not influential. I also can't see much of an argument for people saying Kanye is the greatest rapper of his generation. I do think you could make the argument that he's one of the best producers of his generation though...
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Just getting back to my original argument that I think we conflate influence with greatness, to the point where they become inseparable. Is 808s a great album? It was influential. Is that the same thing?
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I made a point to say 808s was an influential album, not a great one. You don't have to like something for it to be influential. I wouldn't call 808s one of my favorite albums, or even one of my favorite Kanye albums, but I have to recognize that you can still hear its influence in a lot of today's artists. Regardless of how I feel about the album, that should be worth at least something, I think.
 
MikeH said:
I personally really love 808s hah. It weirdly got better with age for me because I think it was a bit ahead of it's time. I don't think great and influential are mutually exclusive and that's the thing about music..."great" is subjective for everyone. I don't think you really argue with influential though. I can't see any possible argument for those who say he was not influential. I also can't see much of an argument for people saying Kanye is the greatest rapper of his generation. I do think you could make the argument that he's one of the best producers of his generation though...
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I never argue for Kanye as one of the greatest rappers, but you dont have to be the most technically sound ever with your instrument to be great. Plenty of the greatest bands of all time arent the greatest at their instruments. Dylan and Young arent the best singers, The Clash and Talking Heads dont have the best guitar players, or drummers, etc.. but these are still some of the greatest acts of all time.

Kanye is the greatest artist of a generation in the hip hop world to me because no mainstream artist was pushing what hip hop can be than Kanye. There are better rappers and better producers in his era, but noone pushed the genre further than Kanye imo.
 
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