It definitely was. I don’t consider either to be “Pap”. I think it’s well crafted and very listenable pop music with singles Tailor-made for top 40 radio or TV commercials. I just think that for people that are music obsessives, like most of us; it can be hard to appreciate mainstream pop for what it is.
I agree to an extent but I probably won’t be listening to any new Pearl Jam or RHCP and haven’t really in over 20 years. I would much rather listen to the singles off a this Beyoncé album than the singles off of PJ. I gave Cowboy Carter a cursory listen which is more than I will do for PJ. The difference has more to do with the pop culture cache the Beyoncé album will carry over the next year. It will likely be everywhere and I would like to be apart of that conversation. Outside of PJ stans, their new album will come and go and is more of an excuse for them to tour than to be culturally significant.
I hope I wasn’t giving off that vibe. I appreciate Beyoncé and Taylor and everything they signify in our society. I hope they both continue to occupy the rarified air of pop culture super stardom that few have reached. I understand that they are not making music for me in particular and I am completely fine with that.
This is an interesting side to think of - that is the whole "conversation" and culture cache. I guess 'cause I never really take these things in this way I am a bit non-chalant to its effects. However, duly noted point. And this brings in
@Fleetwood-Matt since i know you are big into the Grammys (which is part of the "conversation", I'd imagine; perhaps with waning impact)....
I think arguments about authenticity and how much credit she should get for the work are all valid conversations to have. I’ve been on both sides of this argument, I remember arguing Morning Phase > Beyoncé during the 2015 Grammys and the amount of people she worked with on that album was a big reason why. But personally I’ve come to point where I can have that conversation but also the thing that matters the most is just “is the album/music good”. At the end of the day that’s all that really matters atleast to me. I thought Morning Phase was good and Beyoncé wasn’t. Now I think RENAISSANCE is good and the amount of people credited doesn’t change that.
Beyoncé may work with 100+ people to make her albums but if that comes out to be a 10/10 album (which I believe Lemonade and RENAISSANCE are both pretty close to 10/10) than that’s what ultimately matters.
You can work with 100+ people and still make a shitty album (just look at DJ Khaled), knowing who to work with and getting the best out of them and making your aesthetic fit with their work are all hard work and deserves credit as much as being a soloist does.
I've seen the argument about multitude of songwriters, producers, etc. with other artists as well. My feelings have changed over the years. If you asked teenage me who was very much into bands and instruments, I'd say fuck that overproduced shit. I really would've flamed on it.
But maybe because as I've gotten older and I appreciate collaboration in my own career, I do not see an issue with it. UNLESS there is some sort of dishonesty about it. But if a band has 4 members and they collaborate okay. So what if they add one - just ONE - producer who is known to add their own direction....is that acceptable? I think for most it would be. But then we arrive at a sort of Sorites Paradox because by extrapolation no number should be too large (I am getting a bit ridiculous here, but I do agree that the outcome is the most important for me).
Btw, I think the DJ Khaled 100+ people, still shitty album is right on the money.
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And
@TenderLovingKiller® no worries about anything. Our interactions have been enough elsewhere that I take this all in good spirit and good faith (and I can only imagine everyone else in this fine community does). I do believe that the Hot Takes thread should exist for the gloves to come off a bit (respectfully) and for rebuttals to be made in kind.
album Cowboy 
Carter which imo opinion is not a country album.
), because there is very little I "hate." Even stuff I don't like rarely rises to the level of hating on it. I don't like Steely Dan. I still own an album. I don't like Beyonce. I still own an album.
