A Poll on VMP Thread Consolidation

[mdmost]

Why does it matter where we all met?

Why should VMP have an advantage over all other clubs by having multiple threads?

No is stopping anyone from doing multiple club threads if that club has something similar where there's distinct subscriptions. Some people only have a Classics subscription. I just don't see the harm in allowing discussion of something people still desire to talk about to be on here.

 

[Joe Mac]

This completely unfair unless we are going to nix all club threads

I agree with you that we shouldn’t blacklist them, they aren’t that important either, whilst completely understanding and agreeing with @jaycee’s general sentiment.

 

[Enoch]

Didn't VMP only do that because they were giving people who may have used the forums and not known of its demise a way to still find the people they used to talk with? I doubt that link stays up into perpetuity, especially when they relaunch whatever their next online presence is.

but they didn't have to at all, and there has been a ton of negativity on this forum toward them so they most feel that they can get something out of this, what I have no idea.

No is stopping anyone from doing multiple club threads if that club has something similar where there's distinct subscriptions. Some people only have a Classics subscription. I just don't see the harm in allowing discussion of something people still desire to talk about to be on here.

Again the thought is at some point soon the talk about any of the tracks will die down so there won't be a lot fo weeding through other stuff, but only time will tell and that has been my point. Keep the current threads reevaluate in three months and if things are still about the same reevaluate at that time and then decide if VMP needs a sub-forum in the Vinyl Club section. This is just my idea and I truly believe the talk in all the threads will die down.

 

[mdmost]

The voting is pretty one-sided. To me, I like having a thread for Anthology because not everyone who still wants to discuss VMP has that. So why force them to read through Anthology posts when all they may be interested is the Essentials track or Classics? Rap and Hip Hop doesn't have as many subs so why force them to wade through discussions of tracks they may have no interest in. I have no issues with exclusives going into the main pre-order thread. But I see no harm in having 3-4 threads for those different tracks. I don't see it as advertising for VMP since there's a lot less traffic to the clubs forum any how.

Regardless, the mods are going to revisit this in 3 months any how. So why make it a big deal when the voting clearly shows people are fine with keeping multiple threads..for now?

 

[Dead C]

No one is trying squash discussion. No one is trying to boot VMP talk out of here. No one is trying to stop people from talking about VMP. I don't know how this thread became about that.

The idea / purpose of the poll was to see if people mostly wanted to contain VMP discussion to one thread or not - and we were told reevaluate in 3 months. Why are people so threatened by the idea of thread reduction? I don't know but it doesn't matter because the 5 option has one.

It will be fine.

VMP still is the worst.

Ironically, I think the idea of this poll was born in the pre-order thread when, in an attempt to be respectful of our feelings, admins asked people to keep the VMP exclusives from being posted in there. We pushed back and said that we have no problem with that, explaining that some people in there might still want to know about exclusives. One example being if the Fiona release is finally dropped. While the intentions were those of consideration, that would mean that we either miss out on something that we might actually want, or be forced to go all in 100% on the VMP thread to even know about anything. By excluding VMP posts in there, that is just another way of giving them special treatment and we should be treating them just like any other entity. Unconditional support and love, or hatred and bitterness are each still extremes. Plus, when they are posted in pre-orders, we can comparison shop with all of the other variants and outlets. It was mentioned that division was just as exclusionary for those not in those threads as those within them and that the bigger issue is that the Vinyl Clubs section is overrun with so much VMP content that people don't feel comfortable going in there.

Anyone who is actually curious about the roots of this should venture into that thread. They might be surprised to discover that there were actually members supporting your right to post freely about VMP elsewhere that was, at least partially, the catalyst for this poll.

 

[mcherry]

but they didn't have to at all, and there has been a ton of negativity on this forum toward them so they most feel that they can get something out of this, what I have no idea.

Again the thought is at some point soon the talk about any of the tracks will die down so there won't be a lot fo weeding through other stuff, but only time will tell and that has been my point. Keep the current threads reevaluate in three months and if things are still about the same reevaluate at that time and then decide if VMP needs a sub-forum in the Vinyl Club section. This is just my idea and I truly believe the talk in all the threads will die down.

VMP staff asked us if we wanted them to do link to us and we said yes. If we had said no, they wouldn’t have. But we wanted stragglers and infrequent visitors to find us. That was more important than worrying about whether it helped vmp or not.

 

[Enoch]

Ironically, I think the idea of this poll was born in the pre-order thread when, in an attempt to be respectful of our feelings, admins asked people to keep the VMP exclusives from being posted in there. We pushed back and said that we have no problem with that, explaining that some people in there might still want to know about exclusives. One example being if the Fiona release is finally dropped. While the intentions were those of consideration, that would mean that we either miss out on something that we might actually want, or be forced to go all in 100% on the VMP thread to even know about anything. By excluding VMP posts in there, that is just another way of giving them special treatment and we should be treating them just like any other entity. Unconditional support and love, or hatred and bitterness are each still extremes. Plus, when they are posted in pre-orders, we can comparison shop with all of the other variants and outlets. It was mentioned that division was just as exclusionary for those not in those threads as those within them and that the bigger issue is that the Vinyl Clubs section is overrun with so much VMP content that people don't feel comfortable going in there.

Anyone who is actually curious about the roots of this should venture into that thread. They might be surprised to discover that there were actually members supporting your right to post freely about VMP elsewhere that was, at least partially, the catalyst for this poll.

Yes, I did see that. That is part of the point of thinking about the future of how VMP is treated. We have a pre-order thread to post their exclusives, this happens with other clubs they get posted in the club thread and pre-orders so people that are specifically interested in a certain place's releases can follow that but others can be informed in case there is additional interest and I think that should be the case with VMP. I do think we should continue to evaluate the need for all the threads. I don't see a need right now to consolidate but I think it will makes sense sooner rather than later (those being loose terms).

 

[mcherry]

Yes, I forget when it was but we had a discussion in the preorder thread that we wouldn’t interfere as long as there wasn’t a huge backlash against those who shared those exclusives in the preorder thread. If it goes well, there may not be a need for the store thread in the future.

Ironically, I think the idea of this poll was born in the pre-order thread when, in an attempt to be respectful of our feelings, admins asked people to keep the VMP exclusives from being posted in there. We pushed back and said that we have no problem with that, explaining that some people in there might still want to know about exclusives. One example being if the Fiona release is finally dropped. While the intentions were those of consideration, that would mean that we either miss out on something that we might actually want, or be forced to go all in 100% on the VMP thread to even know about anything. By excluding VMP posts in there, that is just another way of giving them special treatment and we should be treating them just like any other entity. Unconditional support and love, or hatred and bitterness are each still extremes. Plus, when they are posted in pre-orders, we can comparison shop with all of the other variants and outlets. It was mentioned that division was just as exclusionary for those not in those threads as those within them and that the bigger issue is that the Vinyl Clubs section is overrun with so much VMP content that people don't feel comfortable going in there.

Anyone who is actually curious about the roots of this should venture into that thread. They might be surprised to discover that there were actually members supporting your right to post freely about VMP elsewhere that was, at least partially, the catalyst for this poll.

Yup

 

[Enoch]

VMP staff asked us if we wanted them to do link to us and we said yes. If we had said no, they wouldn’t have. But we wanted stragglers and infrequent visitors to find us. That was more important than worrying about whether it helped vmp or not.

I still think they would have only have asked if they thought there was something for them to get out of it, whether it was a big thing or a small thing. Look I want to have positive thoughts toward VMP but there have been a lot of questionable things they have done as of late which seemed gear toward their goals than what others/members would prefer.

 

[mcherry]

I still think they would have only have asked if they thought there was something for them to get out of it, whether it was a big thing or a small thing. Look I want to have positive thoughts toward VMP but there have been a lot of questionable things they have done as of late which seemed gear toward their goals than what others/members would prefer.

I am in no way of the view that they are anything but a business looking after their own interests. Still doesn’t mean i think linking to us is bad for us.

 

[Enoch]

I am in no way of the view that they are anything but a business looking after their own interests. Still doesn’t mean i think linking to us is bad for us.

I don't think it is bad for the forum either but an interesting thing to think about in terms of this conversation in my head

 

[mcherry]

Maybe? Who knows? It's totally fair to question their motives.

As much as I think they are no better - and possibly worse in some ways - than Amazon it's probably a net good to have a place for VMP discussion here. I get that and I agree, as much as I'm rooting for their business to fail.

I think we should be careful about giving them a platform of any kind, while hoping that the folks that only come to try and get insider info about VMP products will eventually stretch their record buying legs a bit and become part of the larger network of folks here.

The beauty is we’re not going to have much insider info at all. Folks are better off with the subreddit since that’s where their staff will be. I’m hopeful that as the months go by, our vmp topic threads will be comparable to other forums’ vmp threads (VC, SH, etc). It’ll just be another club.

 

[Dead C]

Yes, I did see that. That is part of the point of thinking about the future of how VMP is treated. We have a pre-order thread to post their exclusives, this happens with other clubs they get posted in the club thread and pre-orders so people that are specifically interested in a certain place's releases can follow that but others can be informed in case there is additional interest and I think that should be the case with VMP. I do think we should continue to evaluate the need for all the threads. I don't see a need right now to consolidate but I think it will makes sense sooner rather than later (those being loose terms).

The difference is that VMP posts weekly exclusives that are, usually, just color variants. I understand that people see that as separate from the main club, because, in a sense, it is. But, to discuss a different color of wax for a week... it doesn't even happen now. Mostly people talk about delays. That happens in the pre-order thread too, so they can co-exist. Aside from that, VMP releases 3 albums a month. @jaycee mentions that the threads have carried over from the last forum, but they really haven't, because in the old forum, there weren't just track specific threads, like they are now; there were track specific guess threads. If we used to have one dedicated thread for dozens of different exclusives and curated titles all living together within it -- remember that and how it was actually better than what they changed it to -- there's no reason that these three different albums a month can't co-exist in one. They all drop on the same day, people discuss what they're getting, what they'll swap for, etc. and it's over. Then a month of dead space opens it up for other discussion and complaints. It's actually less focused this way, not more focused.

I'm done arguing, because I believe this is an emotional decision and not a logical one. People will always fight harder and vote emotionally. Look at everything else in the world. Sometimes, emotions are more important.

I'm disappointed that so many seem to fear integrating into this new platform, but that's just disappointment. If people can't even integrate different albums from the same company into one thread, what hope do we have? It's like when my friend would use a windows simulator on his mac. It's a weird oasis. Meanwhile, they're completely fine with integrating the exclusives into one thread, which have often included more titles at once, and of varying genres, into the same space. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy nobody has suggested dividing the weekly exclusives up by genre, too. Plus, aside from the rare indie rock or country/folk release or something, we're generally discussing only 2 genres at once, since Essentials so often include R&HH or Classics style selections.

Two things I keep hearing are that, "people that are against VMP can just ignore" all of these separate threads overtaking the clubs section, if they have a problem with them. Meanwhile, those same people can't ignore conversations about other genres in the same thread, because THAT is overwhelming. The other thing is people explaining to me that they only want to be in threads that are specific to Essentials and not the other tracks. That's one example. Some just want to hear about classics. My response to that earlier was

Can't you just not discuss it. Hip hop and classics-style albums have actually been Essentials selections a good percentage of the time. Miles. De La Soul. Biggie. Betty Davis, Main Source. Nina Simone. Wells Fargo. Fugees. Big Bill Broonzy. Clipse etc. Essentials isn't even a genre. If you visit the pre-order thread, you don't have to discuss the albums that you're not interested in, or be in every conversation, but that doesn't mean that they can't co-exist. And it's not about one rap or blues album a month, it's multiple albums a day.

I still don't get it.

And... I still don't get it. And I doubt that I will, because it doesn't hold water for me. But, it is what it is and it seems to upset more people to consolidate them at this point than it does the people in favor of it. So, if that's the case, the decision to leave it alone makes more sense for now, if only for the way that it affects people.

It's been said that we will re-evaluate this in 3 months. Cool. Regardless of what your views are on whether to consolidate or not, I hope this doesn't turn into something that divides us into two groups beyond that. I started visiting the VMP threads, primarily, because I felt uncomfortable about doing that and I didn't want to allow myself to feel restricted anywhere on this forum. Turns out that there's more VMP bitching in there than anywhere. In other words, I was comfortable just fine. Hopefully, those who spend most of there time in there will also branch out and venture more across the forum at large.

This conversation sucks, but I'm really happy that we're tackling all of this as a community and that space like this is being provided by the admins to do that. This is a new community. We are defining what it is and what it will be. That's really what's at the heart of this discussion anyway.

 

[Dead C]

Me too. It probably will. I hope that people that have just been coming for VMP info find reason to stick around.



This stuff always degrades into people interpreting opinion as fact and then degrades further either by people actively trying to silence dissenting opinions from theirs or feeling silenced by opposing views.

It stinks to see people saying I don't have any reason to be here without the VMP information or without the current setup for VMP information. Like I said, I hope those folks explore a little bit.

Change is threatening - the current situation is not changing - and it'll be fine - I think.

And if we're being completely honest, if people are really only coming here for VMP info, then the main reason that the VMP threads have more traffic isn't because people are discussing one record a month in each of them. It's because there are people in there that aren't venturing out into threads specifically designed for the topics being discussed, and simply dumping all of the side conversations into those threads, because they don't venture outside of them. Reddit is actually boring, BECAUSE there are threads designated, not only to each track, but each individual exclusive, and there's still not enough with that to even generate any interesting discussion. That tells me that the difference here isn't that the appeal comes from the conversation being more focused, but that it's less focused and can go anywhere. That and the fact that this community is here. So, anything that rejects the value of the community beyond VMP focused discussion... I mean, you already have a control for that and it's the reddit sub. And, apparently, that's not doing it for people.

 

[Enoch]

The difference is that VMP posts weekly exclusives that are, usually, just color variants. I understand that people see that as separate from the main club, because, in a sense, it is. But, to discuss a different color of wax for a week... it doesn't even happen now. Mostly people talk about delays. That happens in the pre-order thread too, so they can co-exist. Aside from that, VMP releases 3 albums a month. @jaycee mentions that the threads have carried over from the last forum, but they really haven't, because in the old forum, there weren't just track specific threads, like they are now; there were track specific guess threads. If we used to have one dedicated thread for dozens of different exclusives and curated titles all living together within it -- remember that and how it was actually better than what they changed it to -- there's no reason that these three different albums a month can't co-exist in one. They all drop on the same day, people discuss what they're getting, what they'll swap for, etc. and it's over. Then a month of dead space opens it up for other discussion and complaints. It's actually less focused this way, not more focused.

I'm done arguing, because I believe this is an emotional decision and not a logical one. People will always fight harder and vote emotionally. Look at everything else in the world. Sometimes, emotions are more important.

I'm disappointed that so many seem to fear integrating into this new platform, but that's just disappointment. If people can't even integrate different albums from the same company into one thread, what hope do we have? It's like when my friend would use a windows simulator on his mac. It's a weird oasis. Meanwhile, they're completely fine with integrating the exclusives into one thread, which have often included more titles at once, and of varying genres, into the same space. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy nobody has suggested dividing the weekly exclusives up by genre, too. Plus, aside from the rare indie rock or country/folk release or something, we're generally discussing only 2 genres at once, since Essentials so often include R&HH or Classics style selections.

Two things I keep hearing are that, "people that are against VMP can just ignore" all of these separate threads overtaking the clubs section, if they have a problem with them. Meanwhile, those same people can't ignore conversations about other genres in the same thread, because THAT is overwhelming. The other thing is people explaining to me that they only want to be in threads that are specific to Essentials and not the other tracks. That's one example. Some just want to hear about classics. My response to that earlier was



And... I still don't get it. And I doubt that I will, because it doesn't hold water for me. But, it is what it is and it seems to upset more people to consolidate them at this point than it does the people in favor of it. So, if that's the case, the decision to leave it alone makes more sense for now, if only for the way that it affects people.

It's been said that we will re-evaluate this in 3 months. Cool. Regardless of what your views are on whether to consolidate or not, I hope this doesn't turn into something that divides us into two groups beyond that. I started visiting the VMP threads, primarily, because I felt uncomfortable about doing that and I didn't want to allow myself to feel restricted anywhere on this forum. Turns out that there's more VMP bitching in there than anywhere. In other words, I was comfortable just fine. Hopefully, those who spend most of there time in there will also branch out and venture more across the forum at large.

This conversation sucks, but I'm really happy that we're tackling all of this as a community and that space like this is being provided by the admins to do that. This is a new community. We are defining what it is and what it will be. That's really what's at the heart of this discussion anyway.

To be honest, I think posts like yours and @jaycee's are part of the potential dividing on the anti-VMP side just as there are others on the pro-VMP side (@roffle24). There are three groups right now, anti, discussing, and pro. I just hope we can all move to the middle. Digging in, which seems to be going right now, isn't going to bring us together.

 

[Joe Mac]

The only other thread that comes close to that amount of activity is another thread that came from VMP... the PIF thread.

I don’t know why I forgot to address this first time around but that’s bollocks. I’m sure that PIF creator @Jake! and UN PIF Commissioner @panino would have strong words to say to anyone who claimed that the PIF’s creation had anything to do with VMP or that they had anything to do with it’s administrstion.

 

[Enoch]

This is really messed-up @Enoch. It's accusatory and full of assumptions. It's also telling your fellow forum members that they should keep their opinions to themselves. I get that you don't like the conflict. Neither do I, but @Dead C stating he doesn't understand someone else's perspctive or me saying that VMP is terrible or whatever your problem with my posts is isn't wrong or right.

For the record. I'm not on any side - so stop putting me someplace i don't identify with. Your summary can be your narrative but it isn't mine.

Framing this as pro or anti VMP is problematic and continues to turn a thread about polls about VMP threads into something else and creates more conflict

Stop trying to silence people.

I am not trying to silence anyone but if there is going to be a call for not dividing people there are post that will go to or away from that. It might be a helpful thought to determine what type of language you are using prior to posting. Using absolutes is usually going to create strong reactions. You can express your opinion in ways that aren't digging which I am seeing.

 

[Dead C]

To be honest, I think posts like yours and @jaycee's are part of the potential dividing on the anti-VMP side just as there are others on the pro-VMP side (@roffle24). There are three groups right now, anti, discussing, and pro. I just hope we can all move to the middle. Digging in, which seems to be going right now, isn't going to bring us together.

When did I say was on the anti-VMP side? My entire position is that I want everyone to feel comfortable everywhere and that I'm against this hard line separating everyone without nuance. I do believe that there are people set on perpetuating a hard divide, as evidenced by your last comment.

Where do you fall, @Enoch? You seem to be making some of the most specific anti-VMP comments in here of anyone, even when they seem less relevant to the conversation.

You literally talk shit about them, while casting dispersions about their intentions. Does the fact that you still continue to buy everything they produce, make you exempt from categorization? My focus hasn't wavered. Does being contradictory and keeping your feet in two opposing spaces make someone the voice of reason? Don't be reductive and condescending toward me, because I have actual viewpoints and see value in this discussion. Comments like those aren't going to avoid conflict, but incite it.

 

[Dead C]

I am not trying to silence anyone but if there is going to be a call for not dividing people there are post that will go to or away from that. It might be a helpful thought to determine what type of language you are using prior to posting. Using absolutes is usually going to create strong reactions. You can express your opinion in ways that aren't digging which I am seeing.

How about this? Based on your last comment dividing everybody else but yourself into 2 camps, you are an absolute hypocrite. This is some self-righteous garbage. Before it gets any more ugly, I'm out. See you in 3 months

 

[gouis]

Hey all, let's be cool. This vote and subsequent organization are not meant to divide people into "camps". The goal is to give people a voice on the structure of the forum, and to let people hash out different ideas on what we all want to do going forward. Please do not make it personal.