The NBA Thread

Woob_woob said:
I agree 100% that Simmons will never be elite until he develops a jump shot, but even without that jump shot he is still a plus player at almost every other aspect of the game. Giannis is a minus shooter and hes about to win MVP. I get that Giannis will at least try to shoot the ball, but I have to believe Ben will get to a place in his career where hes at least attempting shots. Really I'd be happy if he just improves hes FT% next year as I see that as his biggest flaw. He can get to the rim at will but tries to avoid contact because hes afraid to go to the line. He he developed into a 75-80%Ft shooter he becomes a plus 20 a night guy no problem even without a jumpshot.

Yes the Raptors and Bucks have better individual players than the Sixers but I still think the Sixers have a better team than both if everything falls the same for next year.
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Yeah the single most important thing Ben Simmons can do to maximize his talent is improve his FT% and get to the line more often. I'm surprised more people don't focus on this, but him not taking low percentage jumpers make us feel weird.
 
jaycee said:
Who wants Ben Simmons besides Philly?

Most teams have already invested in a point guard either through the draft or free agency or they have an established veteran. I mean he's better than Lonzo Ball. Mike Conely is almost done in Memphis. The Pelicans might make sense. Just about everywhere else has their guy..... and he can't shoot from the outside so you have to build your team in a certain way. He could become great in Philly because of the other pieces they have in place around him (in theory) but he's never going to be the man on offense and he's not strong enough defensively - yet. I mean the last shot of the Raptors series was defended incredibly poorly by Simmons.

My point is that it's going to be difficult for Philly to find a trading partner for him and get any value in return. Maybe there's a gm willing to take the chance. Maybe they can fleece Cleveland for Sexton cause their gm is an idiot but Philly is going to have to make it work with him - so he needs to get to work specifically on his shot. I think a full year of him Embiid and Butler would help out the team chemistry tremendously which seems to be building in the right direction.
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We have very different evaluations on Simmons' defense.

The only way I would be ok with trading him is if the Sixers got a top 10 player in return, which I don't see happening.
 
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jaycee said:
Who wants Ben Simmons besides Philly?

Most teams have already invested in a point guard either through the draft or free agency or they have an established veteran. I mean he's better than Lonzo Ball. Mike Conely is almost done in Memphis. The Pelicans might make sense. Just about everywhere else has their guy..... and he can't shoot from the outside so you have to build your team in a certain way. He could become great in Philly because of the other pieces they have in place around him (in theory) but he's never going to be the man on offense and he's not strong enough defensively - yet. I mean the last shot of the Raptors series was defended incredibly poorly by Simmons.

My point is that it's going to be difficult for Philly to find a trading partner for him and get any value in return. Maybe there's a gm willing to take the chance. Maybe they can fleece Cleveland for Sexton cause their gm is an idiot but Philly is going to have to make it work with him - so he needs to get to work specifically on his shot. I think a full year of him Embiid and Butler would help out the team chemistry tremendously which seems to be building in the right direction.
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The following teams all need PGs or could use an upgrade: Suns, Wizards, Pelicans, Knicks, Bulls, Cavs, Grizzlies, Heat, Wolves, and potentially the Spurs depending on if Dejounte comes back healthy. There is absolutely a market for him. You won't get a top 10 player back for him because he's not a top 10 player. But maybe you build a package with the Wizards and a third team around Bradley Beal. I think they could get a pretty good return on Simmons right now from a rebuilding team. The Suns would kill for him.

As for his defense, he is a fantastic defender. If you think the last shot of the Raptors series is an indication of his defense as a whole, then I don't know what to tell you. Good offense beats good defense most of the time. I don't think it's fair at all to judge his entire defense on one play. I'm not sure many defenders could have stopped that shot from going in or guarded Kawhi much better
 
jaycee said:
No particular order:
John Wall
Kyrie Irving
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul
Kemba Walker
Russell Westbrook
Jamal Murray
De'Aaron Fox
D'Angelo Russell
Steph Curry

Right now - all of these guys are better point guards than Simmons. Trade value wise, taking age and talent into account he's in the top 10 point guards. He's not in the top 10 of overall players in trade value imo. I know people in Philly are looking at me like this - I'm just trying to be honestly criticial about him despite my fandom.

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I would be careful not to overvalue the relatively anachronistic concept of positions. Part of what makes Simmons so special is his ability to play multiple spots on the floor. Is he a finished product? Not even close. Would it be a smart basketball move to give up on him, when he had been really good? Again, not even close.

Honestly, the only guys on your list that I would take over Simmons, for a variety of reasons, are Curry, Lillard, and maybe Westbrook (I’d have to think hard about this last one).
 
jaycee said:
No particular order:
John Wall
Kyrie Irving
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul
Kemba Walker
Russell Westbrook
Jamal Murray
De'Aaron Fox
D'Angelo Russell
Steph Curry

Right now - all of these guys are better point guards than Simmons. Trade value wise, taking age and talent into account he's in the top 10 point guards. He's not in the top 10 of overall players in trade value imo. I know people in Philly are looking at me like this - I'm just trying to be honestly criticial about him despite my fandom.

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That list is a bit rough. CP and Wall are two of the worst contracts in the entire league. Wall is on the books through 2023 when he will be paid FORTY SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS that year on a player option. His contract was awful the second he signed it, injured or not. He's just not a great player anymore and not a centerpiece for a championship team. I'd take Simmons over him any day of the week. No other team would have offered him anywhere close to that contract. That's why the Wizards GM got fired finally. CP is old, injury prone and on an AWFUL contract as well. I'd take Simmons over both easily all things considered. I'd take Simmons over a bunch of other guys on your list too. Some are good individual players but most of them really don't help their teams win, nor do they make them contenders. Seems like you're looking at the careers those guys have versus where they are at currently in their careers.

jaycee said:
Why would the wizards trade for him.
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Because they can and should be going into rebuild mode. Get back expiring contracts, picks and Simmons and build through the draft. With Wall's awful contract, they won't be sniffing the playoffs until his contract is over, so acquire assets and move on. Beal won't want to be on a shitty team for much longer so may as well try to move him soon to get maximum return.

The Knicks have a bevy of very nice draft picks, some young talent and cap space to make moves involving Simmons. Maybe you use Simmons as part of a centerpiece in an AD trade with multiple teams where the Pelicans get picks + cap relief + Simmons. Simmons and Zion together would be a fun team. The Heat have Josh Richardson who would be a very nice piece for the Sixers. Since Philly is in win now, Goran Dragic could also be a nice fit. Maybe you get Kevin Love from Cleveland? These are all really quick hypotheticals but the Sixers do need to improve somehow to get to that next step IMO. Overall, I'm not sure they do trade Simmons but it would be worth exploring.
 
jaycee said:
If the sixers were looking to move him they need a distributor, a serious young talent, some other players to even out money, and a draft pick in return. If we're dreaming there is potential for them to improve the present and the future by moving him but like I argued above that seems very unlikely.
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Simmons is on a very small contract actually (only 8 mil next season) so evening out money is not a big issue. The bigger issue might be figuring out who to attach to Simmons to get back a player on a more substantial salary. Can't sign and trade Tobias and trade him with Simmons because you aren't allowed to trade more than 1 player in a sign and trade and cannot make side deals, so I'd be curious to see what they do. Maybe move Redick + Simmons since Redick is expiring and would be cap relief.

I agree with you that it's unlikely he is traded but I'm not sure what Simmons ceiling truly is as a team player if he refuses to learn how to shoot.
 
jaycee said:
No particular order:
John Wall
Kyrie Irving
Damian Lillard
Chris Paul
Kemba Walker
Russell Westbrook
Jamal Murray
De'Aaron Fox
D'Angelo Russell
Steph Curry

Right now - all of these guys are better point guards than Simmons. Trade value wise, taking age and talent into account he's in the top 10 point guards. He's not in the top 10 of overall players in trade value imo. I know people in Philly are looking at me like this - I'm just trying to be honestly criticial about him despite my fandom.

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JOHN WALL?!?!?!?

Dude is the most un-tradeable player in the league.
 
jaycee said:
Right. He might never be the player he was again.

Still I think it's funny when we start to write off 28 year olds because we're obsessed with young talent. In the case of wall he's an old 28 but players are different now. They play until 40 if they can stay healthy - not 34 or 35.
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Yea but even the player he was wasnt much better than Simmons, and Simmons is on a better pace than Wall was at the same point in their careers.
Simmons 2nd year: 16.9/7.7/8.8
Wall 2nd year: 16.3/8/4.5
 
jaycee said:
Right. He might never be the player he was again.

Still I think it's funny when we start to write off 28 year olds because we're obsessed with young talent. In the case of wall he's an old 28 but players are different now. They play until 40 if they can stay healthy - not 34 or 35.
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John Wall is like dead.
 
MikeH said:
It's not so much that the facilities are bad, but that some teams are nowhere near their affiliate. Boston's GLeague team is in Portland Maine, Miami's is in Sioux Falls South Dakota, etc. If you're doing call-ups or have two-way players, it's very difficult. The Knicks have had guys play in a GLeague game during the day and then play in an NBA game later that night, which sometimes has to happen with injuries and it's fine because their team is about an hour's drive away from NYC.
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Still not too dissimilar from baseball, many of their minor league teams are all spread out
 
jaycee said:
Simmons' assist numbers are better than I thought, but the per games ignore that Simmons can't hit a three or a free throw.
I still think Wall WAS the better defender and he had to lead the team in scoring too.
Thankfully Ben doesn't need to do that... but is he really better than John Wall in his second year if he's Philly's 3rd or 4th scoring option?



Fine
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Wall’s locker room persona and his (in)ability to (not) lead a team have to be taken into account here, too.
 
jaycee said:
Ugggghhh. The question was who are 10 players better than Simmons at the position. Nothing about contracts. John Wall is 28. He's still a better PG than Simmons at this point. I'm out when you start making the this about something that it wasn't.
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My fault. Missed the part about contracts not being part of the convo at all. It seems like a crucial part of the equation though. Even if you take that out, I think Simmons is still better than a bunch of people on your list, Wall included. Stats as an individual doesn't matter as much any more when it comes to discussions about legacy, trade value and skill. And defense also becomes underrated for a lot of these guys. Simmons is a more versatile defender than a lot of people on that list and that increases his value.

jaycee said:
Still I think it's funny when we start to write off 28 year olds because we're obsessed with young talent. In the case of wall he's an old 28 but players are different now. They play until 40 if they can stay healthy - not 34 or 35.
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Yea--sometimes people get caught up in age and think 30 is a death sentence for basketball players. But age becomes a huge factor for guys who rely on athleticism like Wall and Westbrook. I think Westbrook's contract is going to look awful in about 2 years. I think I would also take Ben over CP right now, but hard for me to distinguish contracts + age in the convo to be honest (as you can tell hah).

And sometimes people hype up age and upside TOO much but it is an important thing. As the league moves more toward a switchable, positionless system, guys like Simmons can become even more valuable. You can put Simmons on the opposing teams' best player and he can hold his own, pretty much regardless of position. It's part of the intrigue of him. His court vision is also unreal. If he learns to shoot, watch out. That's a big if though...I'm just truly amazed that he refuses to shoot. Don't know if part of that is on the coaching staff, or Simmons himself but they really need to drive that home with him. He NEEDS to learn how to even get a decent jumper or take 3s.

Overall, I think Simmons has a lot of intrigue for teams that are rebuilding, and maybe less for a team that is in win-now mode. But that's why a trade could make sense for a number of suitors who are looking to transition from win-now to rebuild like the Wizards and Pelicans might. He also would just sell tickets and merch which is all that some teams care about at this point.
 
jaycee said:
Simmons' assist numbers are better than I thought, but the per games ignore that Simmons can't hit a three or a free throw.
I still think Wall WAS the better defender and he had to lead the team in scoring too.
Thankfully Ben doesn't need to do that... but is he really better than John Wall in his second year if he's Philly's 3rd or 4th scoring option?



Fine
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The fact that he averaged more points per game than Wall as a 3rd option as opposed to the 1st option like Wall was, is just more ammo in my Simmons >Wall argument
 
As for trades, there isnt a single player out there that a team would let go of for Simmons that I'd be happy with
 
Psymon said:
I would be careful not to overvalue the relatively anachronistic concept of positions. Part of what makes Simmons so special is his ability to play multiple spots on the floor. Is he a finished product? Not even close. Would it be a smart basketball move to give up on him, when he had been really good? Again, not even close.

Honestly, the only guys on your list that I would take over Simmons, for a variety of reasons, are Curry, Lillard, and maybe Westbrook (I’d have to think hard about this last one).
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The only other person in the league currently capable of this is Draymond

 
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