Sutherland Club House

Angsty said:
Saw this on Audiogon today. Seems like prices have gone up on used Sutherland since 2020.

Sutherland Engineering Insight Phono Pre | Phono

Sutherland Engineering Insight Phono Pre for sale. Sutherland Engineering Insight Phono in Very Good Condition for sale Tested and perfectly functioning No dents or scuffs - Refer to pictures Original box included Professionally packed for shipping...
www.audiogon.com www.audiogon.com
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Considering it retails for $1400 and this particular listing is OBO, I think it's still a good deal ;)
 
Angsty said:
Saw this on Audiogon today. Seems like prices have gone up on used Sutherland since 2020.

Sutherland Engineering Insight Phono Pre | Phono

Sutherland Engineering Insight Phono Pre for sale. Sutherland Engineering Insight Phono in Very Good Condition for sale Tested and perfectly functioning No dents or scuffs - Refer to pictures Original box included Professionally packed for shipping...
www.audiogon.com www.audiogon.com
Click to expand...
I sold mine for $1000 shipped. Sutherland retains value more than most.
 
Is the difference between the 20/20 and Insight worth the extra $$, especially if he Insight can be had at $1K? Seriously thinking a Sutherland will be my phono pre upgrade, but just don’t know which one.
 
epyon415 said:
Is the difference between the 20/20 and Insight worth the extra $$, especially if he Insight can be had at $1K? Seriously thinking a Sutherland will be my phono pre upgrade, but just don’t know which one.
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I’ve said over the years that power supplies make a big difference. Often overlooked unfortunately.

Both @AnthonyI and I owned the first generation Vibe which uses an outboard 48 volt power “brick”. We both returned ours pretty quickly and upgraded to the Insight.

Why do I bring this up? Because the 20/20 uses 2 of the same 48 volt power bricks. That always made me a bit leery, although the 20/20 has earned universal praise from those who own them.

When I upgraded from the Insight, I went to the Duo, which in the base configuration uses the same power supplies as the Insight.

Since I purchased mine, Sutherland has started offering an optional upgrade- a linear power supply with a toroidal power transformer.

I’d recommend the Insight without reservation. If it were me and I had $350 of wiggle room, go with an Insight with the LPS option.

The 20/20 has the advantage of being a true dual mono design. It’ll have infinite channel separation (like the Duo) because it has 2 separate mono units in one chassis. On paper- great. Makes sense, right? Actually it doesn’t matter. Vinyl is limited to about 40 db of channel separation, and most phono cartridges (with the exception of Grado and Soundsmith) struggle to get above 30 dB. Any phono stage can do this.

So why go to the trouble of a dual mono design? Ron Sutherland said it’s actually easier (and more effective) to optimize a single channel as opposed to a shared (stereo) design to lower noise and hum. Of course, this costs more.

Also, Sutherland has not ever (that I know of) had a price increase on their current models. He won’t be able to hold these prices forever.

Food for thought.
 
epyon415 said:
Is the difference between the 20/20 and Insight worth the extra $$, especially if he Insight can be had at $1K? Seriously thinking a Sutherland will be my phono pre upgrade, but just don’t know which one.
Click to expand...
I think your kind of answering your own question, if you can get an Insight open box/used for $1k, it's the better deal, bang for your buck. "Better" is a slippery slope with all this stuff. Coming from someone who has an Insight, was contemplating moving up to a 20/20 because I didn't want to spend DUO money, I would say your more than safe taking the Insight route if your looking for one at a sale price. If not and you can swing the 20/20, have at it.

All that being said, I also went from a Pho-8 to the Insight and I can tell you the difference there is night and day ;)
 
AnthonyI said:
All that being said, I also went from a Pho-8 to the Insight and I can tell you the difference there is night and day ;)
Click to expand...
And yes, to @HiFi Guy's comment, the Vibe was technically what came after the Pho-8, but as he mentioned it was short lived...............I think it was literally a few days before returning it for an Insight. Which by the way, I still own and use ;)
 
HiFi Guy said:
I’ve said over the years that power supplies make a big difference. Often overlooked unfortunately.

Both @AnthonyI and I owned the first generation Vibe which uses an outboard 48 volt power “brick”. We both returned ours pretty quickly and upgraded to the Insight.

Why do I bring this up? Because the 20/20 uses 2 of the same 48 volt power bricks. That always made me a bit leery, although the 20/20 has earned universal praise from those who own them.

When I upgraded from the Insight, I went to the Duo, which in the base configuration uses the same power supplies as the Insight.

Since I purchased mine, Sutherland had started offering an optional upgrade- a linear power supply with a toroidal power transformer.

I’d recommend the Insight without reservation. If it were me and I had $350 of wiggle room, go with an Insight with the LPS option.

The 20/20 has the advantage of being a true dual mono design. It’ll have infinite channel separation (like the Duo) because it it’s 2 separate mono units in one chassis. On paper- great. Makes sense, right? Actually it doesn’t matter. Vinyl is limited to about 40 db of channel separation, and most phono cartridges (with the exception of Grado and Soundsmith) struggle to get above 30 dB. Any phono stage can do this.

So why go to the trouble of a dual mono design? Ron Sutherland said it’s actually easier (and more effective) to optimize a single channel as opposed to a shared (stereo) design to lower noise and hum. Of course, this costs more.

Also, Sutherland has not ever (that I know of) had a price increase on their current models. He won’t be able to hold these prices forever.

Food for thought.
Click to expand...
I had realized or noticed the Insight wasn’t power brick reliant and something I was initially concerned with when looking at the 20/20. The mono design and technical specs of the 20/20 were what were drawing me to it, but if the “tangible” difference either may not easily manifest or would require a possibly ”spendy” cart then I doubt I could justify the cost to myself.
AnthonyI said:
I think your kind of answering your own question, if you can get an Insight open box/used for $1k, it's the better deal, bang for your buck. "Better" is a slippery slope with all this stuff. Coming from someone who has an Insight, was contemplating moving up to a 20/20 because I didn't want to spend DUO money, I would say your more than safe taking the Insight route if your looking for one at a sale price. If not and you can swing the 20/20, have at it.

All that being said, I also went from a Pho-8 to the Insight and I can tell you the difference there is night and day ;)
Click to expand...
Appreciate you both sharing the insight (🤣) on the Insight!
 
I personally settled on the 20/20 due to the dual mono design, the extra 4dB of gain, and, more importantly, the overall sense that it was my end game piece; I just don’t see myself ever climbing higher up the phono stage ladder.

I may pick up the LPS at some point just to simplify the wiring and take advantage of whatever small sonic benefits it provides, but I am immensely happy with the 20/20 as it stands.

I don’t think you can really make a wrong decision here.
 
The 20/20 is a more refined design than the Insight, but it’s not going to be the best choice for everyone. I’d recommend it if you need the extra 4dB of gain for low output MCs, don’t mind the dual outboard power supplies and have the extra ~$1000 to put toward a “final” phonostage.

Also, for other MCs, the 470 ohm loading in the 20/20 might be more useful than the the alternate 10K loading option in the Insight. There is a story about that 10K loading for later. I use a Hana SL cartridge for which the 470 ohm option might theoretically be a better fit than the 200 or 1000 ohm options in the Insight, but I’d rather spend $1000 to upgrade to a Hana ML than to a 20/20. The Duo is another matter entirely…

The Insight is an AC-powered version of a previous battery-powered design, the Ph3D. Ron Sutherland saw a lot of demand for a replacement AC power supply for his previous battery powered designs and, being the pragmatic businessman he is, created the Insight. It is an excellent phono; again, I own the Insight.

The 20/20 was more of a re-thinking of his design principles to get to the power supply purity of the battery powered designs using AC power. He uses a ton of capacitors to filter the power from the outboard units to get very clean power without a linear power supply. However, being the pragmatic businessman he is, he started selling LPS units to replace the switching power supplies because of customer demand. He has never claimed, to my knowledge, that the LPS units are superior performers. He says that some customers prefer them.
 
Angsty said:
The 20/20 is a more refined design than the Insight, but it’s not going to be the best choice for everyone. I’d recommend it if you need the extra 4dB of gain for low output MCs, don’t mind the dual outboard power supplies and have the extra ~$1000 to put toward a “final” phonostage.

Also, for other MCs, the 470 ohm loading in the 20/20 might be more useful than the the alternate 10K loading option in the Insight. There is a story about that 10K loading for later. I use a Hana SL cartridge for which the 470 ohm option might theoretically be a better fit than the 200 or 1000 ohm options in the Insight, but I’d rather spend $1000 to upgrade to a Hana ML than to a 20/20. The Duo is another matter entirely…

The Insight is an AC-powered version of a previous battery-powered design, the Ph3D. Ron Sutherland saw a lot of demand for a replacement AC power supply for his previous battery powered designs and, being the pragmatic businessman he is, created the Insight. It is an excellent phono; again, I own the Insight.

The 20/20 was more of a re-thinking of his design principles to get to the power supply purity of the battery powered designs using AC power. He uses a ton of capacitors to filter the power from the outboard units to get very clean power without a linear power supply. However, being the pragmatic businessman he is, he started selling LPS units to replace the switching power supplies because of customer demand. He has never claimed, to my knowledge, that the LPS units are superior performers. He says that some customers prefer them.
Click to expand...
My phone conversations with Ron corroborate your take on his not claiming the LPS to be the better option.
 
kvetcha said:
I personally settled on the 20/20 due to the dual mono design, the extra 4dB of gain, and, more importantly, the overall sense that it was my end game piece; I just don’t see myself ever climbing higher up the phono stage ladder.

I may pick up the LPS at some point just to simplify the wiring and take advantage of whatever small sonic benefits it provides, but I am immensely happy with the 20/20 as it stands.

I don’t think you can really make a wrong decision here.
Click to expand...
I 100% agree with all of this post.
 
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