Sutherland Club House

VMPKJ said:
Hit us with that comparison of the two...
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I'm at the place where my speakers are now the weak link in my system and so I am only getting a bit of what I suspect is there.

The soundstage is fuller, meaning that there is less missing space between the speaker edges and center image. The JBLs I have are excellent at imaging. The singer is dead center and in well mastered music the speakers disappear. However, when the mix is expansive and really pushes the sound to the very edges of the speaker boundaries I can hear left speaker, dip/gap, center image, dip/gap, right speaker. The Duo has done a good job of nearly eliminating those dip/gap spaces. Again, in better speakers I'm sure that gap would simply be gone.

Another thing I notice is better edging of sounds. By edging I don't mean "sharp" edges, but more "defined" edges. I feel as if the sounds are more "present" without sounding blended into other sounds. What this has lead to is more layers of sounds being heard. It isn't that if I switch back to the 20/20 I don't hear most of those sounds...but I have to focus on hearing them more. Whereas with the Duo I keep experiencing "wow, I haven't heard/noticed that before" without losing the sounds that I was normally hearing in the mix with the 20/20. An example of this is Dua Lipa's Future Nostalgia. The mix on this album has lots of information and the soundstage goes well beyond speaker edges. There was just so much more information I noticed when listening to the Duo. I thought maybe it was just confirmation bias going on, but when I went back to the 20/20 I could hear those things but I they just weren't as present.

Another thing I noticed is increased perceived sound decay. Which again just has to be a function of the increased definition of sounds I mentioned above. Meaning, the information on the recording hasn't changed so if I am hearing more decay it has to be that the Duo is simply revealing more of the tail end of the notes than I heard with the 20/20. I noticed this first while listening to Melody Gardot's Currency of Man. Notes just seemed to hang in space longer. It was really cool.

So, would I recommend someone jump from the $2200 20/20 to the $4000 Duo? Probably not unless they got a great deal on one like I did. Is there improvement? Absolutely! Am I enjoying that improvement? Damn right! Will I get even more impact with better speakers? Yeah. But, I spent the money on the preamp instead. Perhaps I would have been smarter to go with the better speakers first. But, where I currently live I can't buy and use the speakers I want as my neighbors would call the cops. So, I decided to bet on the future impact the Duo's will have over the 20/20 on those next speakers when I am living in a place they will "fit".

In the mean time I have no complaints. I still gained definite improvement at an excellent price and the expectation of even bigger impact in the future.
 
GStephenH said:
I'm at the place where my speakers are now the weak link in my system and so I am only getting a bit of what I suspect is there.

The soundstage is fuller, meaning that there is less missing space between the speaker edges and center image. The JBLs I have are excellent at imaging. The singer is dead center and in well mastered music the speakers disappear. However, when the mix is expansive and really pushes the sound to the very edges of the speaker boundaries I can hear left speaker, dip/gap, center image, dip/gap, right speaker. The Duo has done a good job of nearly eliminating those dip/gap spaces. Again, in better speakers I'm sure that gap would simply be gone.

Another thing I notice is better edging of sounds. By edging I don't mean "sharp" edges, but more "defined" edges. I feel as if the sounds are more "present" without sounding blended into other sounds. What this has lead to is more layers of sounds being heard. It isn't that if I switch back to the 20/20 I don't hear most of those sounds...but I have to focus on hearing them more. Whereas with the Duo I keep experiencing "wow, I haven't heard/noticed that before" without losing the sounds that I was normally hearing in the mix with the 20/20. An example of this is Dua Lipa's Future Nostalgia. The mix on this album has lots of information and the soundstage goes well beyond speaker edges. There was just so much more information I noticed when listening to the Duo. I thought maybe it was just confirmation bias going on, but when I went back to the 20/20 I could hear those things but I they just weren't as present.

Another thing I noticed is increased perceived sound decay. Which again just has to be a function of the increased definition of sounds I mentioned above. Meaning, the information on the recording hasn't changed so if I am hearing more decay it has to be that the Duo is simply revealing more of the tail end of the notes than I heard with the 20/20. I noticed this first while listening to Melody Gardot's Currency of Man. Notes just seemed to hang in space longer. It was really cool.

So, would I recommend someone jump from the $2200 20/20 to the $4000 Duo? Probably not unless they got a great deal on one like I did. Is there improvement? Absolutely! Am I enjoying that improvement? Damn right! Will I get even more impact with better speakers? Yeah. But, I spent the money on the preamp instead. Perhaps I would have been smarter to go with the better speakers first. But, where I currently live I can't buy and use the speakers I want as my neighbors would call the cops. So, I decided to bet on the future impact the Duo's will have over the 20/20 on those next speakers when I am living in a place they will "fit".

In the mean time I have no complaints. I still gained definite improvement at an excellent price and the expectation of even bigger impact in the future.
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Stephen, it’s good to read your initial impressions are favorable and that you are happy with the purchase. 👍 Not at all surprising that you are hearing more information which makes it easier for the brain to process what is going on in your music. Sounds to me like some experimentation with speaker placement would be beneficial. I highly recommend buying a laser measuring device for more accurate locating of your speakers. Can be had for cheap <$25.
I hope our transaction helps to make me a “Recommended buyer/seller”.
 
Looking at an Insight, any thoughts on whether the LPS upgrade is worth a $300 difference in price? I'm gaming out the rest of my system and am looking at a 5 year plus type of piece.
 
wmeugene said:
Looking at an Insight, any thoughts on whether the LPS upgrade is worth a $300 difference in price? I'm gaming out the rest of my system and am looking at a 5 year plus type of piece.
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Afaik it was something Ron himself didn’t find necessary but offered because people asked. Take from that what you will.
 
wmeugene said:
Looking at an Insight, any thoughts on whether the LPS upgrade is worth a $300 difference in price? I'm gaming out the rest of my system and am looking at a 5 year plus type of piece.
Click to expand...
I think this has been covered a few times in this thread, at least with the 20/20. I found the LPS made a difference with my 20/20, which has better filtering than the Insight, and I’m glad I have it.
 
I have an Insight without an LPS. I have no complaints with it. Save the $300 for your next upgrade.
Better yet, get the Insight used (can be found for the same price as a KC Vibe), and you'll have even more cash for speakers!
 
wmeugene said:
View attachment 111864
The Insight is up and running!

Quick question in gain and loading, I'm using the middle settings (50 dB and 1k Ohms), I assume with a Grado Gold 3 and an Onkyo that is right where I need to be?
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Depending on the input sensitivity of your amplifier, that might be a bit hot. I’d personally lean toward 40db with a high output cart like the Grado. That will put you at 500mV output. 45db is more like 880mV. At 50db you’re outputting 1.5V, which is higher than most typical amplifiers are expecting.
 
wmeugene said:
View attachment 111864
The Insight is up and running!

Quick question in gain and loading, I'm using the middle settings (50 dB and 1k Ohms), I assume with a Grado Gold 3 and an Onkyo that is right where I need to be?
Click to expand...
A loading of 47kΩ is normal for moving magnet and moving iron cartridges, including Grados. The other loadings are for moving coil carts, usually whichever the cart's manual recommends.

The gain settings are also (mostly) for moving coil. Grados and moving magnet carts are usually happiest at 40 dB. If you try other brands of moving iron, or if you get into Grado's low voltage wood carts, and certainly if you try moving coil, you might need higher gain.

That said, 47kΩ, 40 dB is just a starting point. Feel free to play around and see what you like best.
 
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