Neverending Covid-19 Coronavirus

[Joe Mac]

Many people can't/shouldn't because of medical reasons, like the drummer from Offspring for instance, his Doctor suggested he not get it because of an existing condition. Some other people claim the protected excuse of religion. So 100% is an impossibility. But aside from those exemptions, I HAD to get vaccines for school and residency in this country. How is this a different situation? I would argue this is much more important.

Your parents chose to have the vaccines because they wanted you to go to state school and you chose to have the vaccine because you wanted residency. That’s an enormous difference to having to have it full stop.

Also when you’re dealing with people who are refusing it out of distrust of the current government and it’s advisors how is mandating it going to help?

We are also reaching a level of of mass vaccination where questions about the resumption of our civil liberties are going to need be started. This virus isn’t going away, full stop, once we reach the critical mass of vaccinations the conversation has to turn to third world aid and living with it.

 

[Joe Mac]

Putting my mind to it, there are so many ways we inconvenience ourselves and so many stipulations we submit ourselves to, partly for the sake of our safety and moreso for the safety of others. Seatbelts are a common example because you don't need one until you need one, but smoking restrictions/bans, littering/garbage/sanitation laws and standards, traffic laws and guidelines, fire code, security checks, car emissions standards, school-or-travel-mandated vaccinations, etc etc, those are all examples I can think of where it'd be easier to just not follow the rules or guidelines, but we do mainly because we're told to, as well as (and ultimately, even if we're only thinking of "not getting in trouble") for the sake of safety.

Now for the most part, all of those are things we were raised with and take at face value; I get that it's a completely different proposition to suddenly require an eight-point harness when operating a motor vehicle. But it boggles my mind that our daily lives are littered with mandates and stipulations we adhere to because of an overall understanding that we're all better off doing as such.

No one has a well founded constitutional right to not wear a seat belt, meanwhile bodily integrity is one of the biggest ones.

 

[Bull Shannon]

No one has a well founded constotutional right to not wear a seat belt, meanwhile bodily integrity is one of the biggest ones.

You're entirely right; most of what I describe has little to do with bodily integrity. I think mandating isn't the answer so much as either the government requiring proof of vaccination for things such as airline travel, or private businesses put their foot down and require proof of vaccination. To put it this way: in Portland public nudity is protected as a form of protest; you can go to the park naked. But you can't come into Plaid Pantry naked for some cold ones; they have a policy.

 

[gouis]

It's like everyone forgot we grew up with "no shirt, no shoes, no service" signs in every 7-11 in the country.

 

[BjorgenFjorgen]

Okay, don't mandate vaccines. But you can absolutely mandate that if people want to participate in public life and attend concerts, movie theatres, restaurants, etc., they have to be vaccinated. I'm sure it's similar elsewhere, but polling here has indicated that a large majority of people would be way more willing to patronize businesses if they knew that staff and other patrons were all vaccinated.

 

[BjorgenFjorgen]

You're entirely right; most of what I describe has little to do with bodily integrity. I think mandating isn't the answer so much as either the government requiring proof of vaccination for things such as airline travel, or private businesses put their foot down and require proof of vaccination. To put it this way: in Portland public nudity is protected as a form of protest; you can go to the park naked. But you can't come into Plaid Pantry naked for some cold ones; they have a policy.

This, although it's unfair and impossible to expect the individual businesses to really police it. Our provincial government is currently not planning for a vaccine passport of any kind, but there's no way small businesses can really enforce it without a provincial system in place.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

WHO is calling for a moratorium on booster shots. At least for a couple of months.

The issue is the developing world is way behind developed nations in vaccination rates. Mainly because the rich and greedy countries bought up all the vaccine supply. If they buy up all the supply again for booster shots the developing world would have the shots purchased out from under them again. And by that happening, giving COVID-19 more time to mutate and possibly beat the current vaccines.

 

[Joe Mac]

This, although it's unfair and impossible to expect the individual businesses to really police it. Our provincial government is currently not planning for a vaccine passport of any kind, but there's no way small businesses can really enforce it without a provincial system in place.

Weve gone the other way and for businesses where you stay for a period of time (pubs & restaurants I indoors/hotels/cinemas/events) you have to show proof of vaccination. I think with the EU wide covid travel passport we now all have a QR code on our phone (or to print off) to travel once we are vaccinated anyway. You produce that at the door. It probably is a strain on businesses but given it is getting that industry open again after so long they’re doing it. That said legally your employer (or even a prospective employer) has absolutely no legal right to even ask your vaccine status never mind enforce an employee mandate.

Also I suppose we are all in different countries with different situations. I think I read in the paper over the weekend that we have the second highest vaccine compliance rate in the world but also amongst the strictest, if not the strictest, of lockdown regimes still in place and a government audit has basically stated that the unelected pandemic advisory board has had almost Carte Blanche in forming policy and legislation over the last 8 months with little challenge or input from the actual elected government.

 

[nolalady]

So is this the Delta Plus or an entirely different mutation?

It's a different mutation.
I just found a paper that seems pretty decent at outlining delta, delta plus, and this new lambda mutation.

The Difference Between Delta, Delta Plus, and Lambda (and Why You Shouldn't Panic Yet)

It's still not clear if new variants Delta Plus or Lambda are any more dangerous than Delta.

lifehacker.com

Many people can't/shouldn't because of medical reasons, like the drummer from Offspring for instance, his Doctor suggested he not get it because of an existing condition. Some other people claim the protected excuse of religion. So 100% is an impossibility. But aside from those exemptions, I HAD to get vaccines for school and residency in this country. How is this a different situation? I would argue this is much more important.

Here's the problem with ALL of this. Right now, none of these vaccines are FDA approved yet. There is ABSOLUTELY no way that I think we should mandate a drug that has yet to go through all the safety and efficacy checks. We can debate all day whether or not there should be vaccine mandates, but in this instance, we are still talking about experimental drugs. They seem to be highly effective with low side effects, but it's yet to be determined whether the benefits outweigh the potential risk, because we have no idea if there is any long term risk with any of the vaccines, especially those based on completely new CAR-T technology.

 

[Max Sterling]

It's a different mutation.
I just found a paper that seems pretty decent at outlining delta, delta plus, and this new lambda mutation.

The Difference Between Delta, Delta Plus, and Lambda (and Why You Shouldn't Panic Yet)

It's still not clear if new variants Delta Plus or Lambda are any more dangerous than Delta.

lifehacker.com

Here's the problem with ALL of this. Right now, none of these vaccines are FDA approved yet. There is ABSOLUTELY no way that I think we should mandate a drug that has yet to go through all the safety and efficacy checks. We can debate all day whether or not there should be vaccine mandates, but in this instance, we are still talking about experimental drugs. They seem to be highly effective with low side effects, but it's yet to be determined whether the benefits outweigh the potential risk, because we have no idea if there is any long term risk with any of the vaccines, especially those based on completely new CAR-T technology.

That's an excellent point. As I said, I really am torn on this, but there's also a time element with this. It's a decision on whether or to let a virus mutate and grow more resistant, or to take the chance on a vaccine that doesn't yet have FDA approval. What's the bigger risk? I don't know the answer, I'm just thinking about this stuff out loud mostly.

 

[BjorgenFjorgen]

Weve gone the other way and for businesses where you stay for a period of time (pubs & restaurants I indoors/hotels/cinemas/events) you have to show proof of vaccination. I think with the EU wide covid travel passport we now all have a QR code on our phone (or to print off) to travel once we are vaccinated anyway. You produce that at the door. It probably is a strain on businesses but given it is getting that industry open again after so long they’re doing it. That said legally your employer (or even a prospective employer) has absolutely no legal right to even ask your vaccine status never mind enforce an employee mandate.

Also I suppose we are all in different countries with different situations. I think I read in the paper over the weekend that we have the second highest vaccine compliance rate in the world but also amongst the strictest, if not the strictest, of lockdown regimes still in place and a government audit has basically stated that the unelected pandemic advisory board has had almost Carte Blanche in forming policy and legislation over the last 8 months with little challenge or input from the actual elected government.

A universal (or near-universal) vaccine passport would be amazing. My new employer has asked us to volunteer our vax status, and even though I know I don't have to give it, I'm more than happy to. If as many people are vaccinated as they are estimating, I'll feel a lot more comfortable when I'm called back into the office.

In regard to an earlier question, though, yes, incentives and mandates (even if not actually forcing people to get vaccinated, only to participate in certain things) absolutely work.



I believe I saw a similar thing in France a few weeks ago when they announced restrictions for non-vax'd folk.

 

[Joe Mac]

That's an excellent point. As I said, I really am torn on this, but there's also a time element with this. It's a decision on whether or to let a virus mutate and grow more resistant, or to take the chance on a vaccine that doesn't yet have FDA approval. What's the bigger risk? I don't know the answer, I'm just thinking about this stuff out loud mostly.

Viruses aren’t mutating in large western countries with high vaccine rates. They’re mutating in third world and emerging economy countries where there is much lower access to vaccinations and so the virus is able to spread and mutate at will. It’s then being transported to the west because we can’t just close the door because everyone is so reliant on global supply chains.

What we need, and have needed for almost half a year now, is to drop the patents on these vaccines, which have had huge public investment, and to get as many doses as possible manufactured and supplied to nations with widespread poverty.

 

[Joe Mac]

Also I’d urge anyone with the means to participate in this UNICEF drive for everyone who has had a vaccine in a developed country to donate a vaccine.

Get a Vaccine, Give a Vaccine | COVID-19 Appeal | UNICEF Ireland

UNICEF is delivering 3 billion COVID-19 vaccines to the most vulnerable families, health workers and high-risk people on our planet. Click to learn more.

www.unicef.ie

The link is to the Irish UNICEF site but I’m sure your local one will have something similar. Vaccinating the world, not just our countries, is how we get out of this.

 

[gouis]

And there's our mask mandate for the (beginning of at least) semester. 4th semester in a row marred by COVID. Honestly not sure why students are even coming back at this point. If I had the choice at all I would just take a pause and come back when things are at least somewhat normal. The increasing price-tag with the decreasing quality of the experience is just so grim.

 

[Chucktshoes]

Viruses aren’t mutating in large western countries with high vaccine rates. They’re mutating in third world and emerging economy countries where there is much lower access to vaccinations and so the virus is able to spread and mutate at will. It’s then being transported to the west because we can’t just close the door because everyone is so reliant on global supply chains.

What we need, and have needed for almost half a year now, is to drop the patents on these vaccines, which have had huge public investment, and to get as many doses as possible manufactured and supplied to nations with widespread poverty.

100,000% this. Our governments poured billions into the research to make these vaccines happen, that means they should be the ones to own them. I view pharma as essentially contracted workers here. Patent protection on these vaccines is an abuse of patent law.

 

[Andy]

Weve gone the other way and for businesses where you stay for a period of time (pubs & restaurants I indoors/hotels/cinemas/events) you have to show proof of vaccination. I think with the EU wide covid travel passport we now all have a QR code on our phone (or to print off) to travel once we are vaccinated anyway. You produce that at the door. It probably is a strain on businesses but given it is getting that industry open again after so long they’re doing it. That said legally your employer (or even a prospective employer) has absolutely no legal right to even ask your vaccine status never mind enforce an employee mandate.

Also I suppose we are all in different countries with different situations. I think I read in the paper over the weekend that we have the second highest vaccine compliance rate in the world but also amongst the strictest, if not the strictest, of lockdown regimes still in place and a government audit has basically stated that the unelected pandemic advisory board has had almost Carte Blanche in forming policy and legislation over the last 8 months with little challenge or input from the actual elected government.

I don't know if it's different in Ireland, but there is precedent in the UK, for refusing employment if not vaccinated. NHS trusts can refuse employment to Drs if they don't have Hepatitis B vaccination. It's based on public health grounds I believe. I very much doubt those sort of restrictions would be applied widely but can see it happening for certain roles that a Covid Vaccination becomes a requirement.

 

[Joe Mac]

I don't know if it's different in Ireland, but there is precedent in the UK, for refusing employment if not vaccinated. NHS trusts can refuse employment to Drs if they don't have Hepatitis B vaccination. It's based on public health grounds I believe. I very much doubt those sort of restrictions would be applied widely but can see it happening for certain roles that a Covid Vaccination becomes a requirement.

Whilst we are common law we also have a written constitution in the mix and the current legal opinion is that doing so would violate privacy rights. Your employer is not per se allowed access to your medical records without your consent which you’re not obliged to provide. It is largely theoretical though because we don’t really have a precedent of a pandemic so it would depend on how our judiciary would view the case in the current climate.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

The whole thing about the vaccine not being FDA approved is BS though. It's gone through the clinical trials, no safety steps were skipped. It's only the bureaucracy that requires a certain time table for FDA approval as to why it's not approved yet. It's expected to be fully FDA approved as is in October.

 

[Chucktshoes]

The whole thing about the vaccine not being FDA approved is BS though. It's gone through the clinical trials, no safety steps were skipped. It's only the bureaucracy that requires a certain time table for FDA approval as to why it's not approved yet. It's expected to be fully FDA approved as is in October.

But it’s not BS. It is currently approved for use under an emergency authorization. Part of the trust factor that is imperative to getting folks to take it is that the processes cannot and must not be altered. If you alter the approval process or just rush through and rubber stamp the approval then you give credible grounds for those that are resisting it to stand on. That would be a blunder even greater than getting involved in a land war in Asia.

However long it takes for final approval is however long it takes and it has to take that long.

 

[gouis]

But it’s not BS. It is currently approved for use under an emergency authorization. Part of the trust factor that is imperative to getting folks to take it is that the processes cannot and must not be altered. If you alter the approval process or just rush through and rubber stamp the approval then you give credible grounds for those that are resisting it to stand on. That would be a blunder even greater than getting involved in a land war in Asia.

However long it takes for final approval is however long it takes and it has to take that long.

Man you're suddenly putting a lot of trust in governmental guidance and processes.