Jazz

No worries buddy, I didn't see it as being snarky, I like a good chat about topics like this.

I understand what you mean now and completely agree with you that the margins seem to be in favour of the label over the musician.

I saw an interesting Instagram post the other day and have just managed to re-find it, as it highlights some interesting (and scary) points which link to what we have been chatting about. I have included the user's handle at the top in case anyone wants to find the post, theres a lot more 'slides' which go into more detail.

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I'm sure the point is still valid that Spotify take far too much of a share, & the artists get jack shit, but I don't think the illustration works. Isn't the revenue generated for Spotify the distribution, i.e. isn't Spotify the distribution? Also, I'm not sure how you can/should compare a purchased record to about 600 minutes of listening on Spotify. What might be more useful is understanding Artist revenue from different media channels.

I've seen a bit about Spotify recently, I wonder how the business models for Tidal & Amazon compare? I wonder what revenue streaming generates in comparison to radio & You tube?
 
Oh man that's really telling. I mean, it's so clearly obvious that Spotify is generally very bad for artists, and equally bad for labels-- unless you're an enormous artist getting millions of hours of streams, and even then I've read some horror stories about incredibly low payments.

I'm a part of a program called Kindle Unlimited via Amazon. I self publish all my books-- which, by the way, is the only real way you can make a living doing nothing but writing these days unless you're a mega famous author-- and they're almost all in the KU program. KU pays like this: every "page" a reader flips through, you get a certain amount of money, generally about .0045 of 1 cent. Over an entire 50k book that tends to be about $1.50, more or less.

To put it into perspective, I write very fast-- about 5,000 words per day. I can write a 50k long novel in 10 days-- and again, that's really fast. But for that much labor, and I do this full time by the way, for that labor I'll get paid about $1.50 per read, assuming people read it all the way through to the end, assuming Amazon can actually calculate pages read accurately, etc etc.

$1.50 for a book isn't great. But because Amazon owns the ebook marketplace, and being in Kindle Unlimited has certain advantages that I won't get into, it's still a good deal. There's no real alternative.

I can imagine musicians are making the same calculation. Spotify, Tidal, etc, they're the game right now. Streaming is the future, and as Spotify continues to grow its massive catalogue, it'll keep squeezing money from the creators. It's always been like that and it'll always be like that: these companies value the listeners/customers, and push the boundaries of what they can get away with in terms of creator royalties. Unfortunately, they're the only game in town, at least until alternatives comes up. Which is why I like Bandcamp and buying physical records when possible, I know that money goes to the people that deserve it.

Anyways, the internet has done a lot for creators, made it so much easier to be a professional author/musician/whatever, but there are so many trade offs, and I worry about what the future will be like as these huge streaming services continue to gain market share and control.

That's really interesting. How does the $1.50 compare to the expected revenue from a physical book?

I can't believe you can write a book in 10 days, that's incredible.
 
That's really interesting. How does the $1.50 compare to the expected revenue from a physical book?

I can't believe you can write a book in 10 days, that's incredible.

Depends on who you are. If you’re a publisher, that’s not good, you’d expect more than 1.50 profit per sale. But a writer with a traditional deal might make 10% on a physical sale profits, minus 15% of that to their agent. Not totally sure what that would come out to, depends on the list price, hard or soft cover, etc. Indies don’t make much on physics sales either, but it’s better, since we have more control over that stuff.

Generally I’d say that KU pays “just fine, borderline not great” which is I think what they want: not so bad that writers leave, but not good, either. You’d rhetorically make more without KU, but again, benefits to being in, etc.

Outside of KU, most people are pricing at 2.99 in my genre, and if you’re getting 70% (which they are) that comes to about $2 per sale (non-KU). But KU dominates the romance genre, so it’s a lot harder to build an audience without it. You make more the higher you price obviously, but yeah, the nuances of indie publishing pricing isn’t all that exciting.
 
Depends on who you are. If you’re a publisher, that’s not good, you’d expect more than 1.50 profit per sale. But a writer with a traditional deal might make 10% on a physical sale profits, minus 15% of that to their agent. Not totally sure what that would come out to, depends on the list price, hard or soft cover, etc. Indies don’t make much on physics sales either, but it’s better, since we have more control over that stuff.

Generally I’d say that KU pays “just fine, borderline not great” which is I think what they want: not so bad that writers leave, but not good, either. You’d rhetorically make more without KU, but again, benefits to being in, etc.

Outside of KU, most people are pricing at 2.99 in my genre, and if you’re getting 70% (which they are) that comes to about $2 per sale (non-KU). But KU dominates the romance genre, so it’s a lot harder to build an audience without it. You make more the higher you price obviously, but yeah, the nuances of indie publishing pricing isn’t all that exciting.
Is romance your genre?

I have to say, while these exchanges haven't been exclusively jazz-related, they've been fascinating! Appreciate you letting us take a peek behind the curtain of the self-publishing profession and its business model!
 
I've seen a bit about Spotify recently, I wonder how the business models for Tidal & Amazon compare? I wonder what revenue streaming generates in comparison to radio & You tube?
Spotify’s CEO recently said something along the lines of “if you want to make more money as a musician on Spotify, write and release more music.” Which is a really shitty thing to say to the people who are the reason why Spotify even exists. Not sure what Tidal gives for streams but I had heard that Apple Music and Qobuz pay better than Spotify does and bandcamp is among the best music sites in terms of profit sharing. I always buy from bandcamp if I want to own anything digital, or if I have the option to buy a record from bandcamp from an artist I do that, especially with bandcamp Fridays this year.
 
Spotify’s CEO recently said something along the lines of “if you want to make more money as a musician on Spotify, write and release more music.” Which is a really shitty thing to say to the people who are the reason why Spotify even exists. Not sure what Tidal gives for streams but I had heard that Apple Music and Qobuz pay better than Spotify does and bandcamp is among the best music sites in terms of profit sharing. I always buy from bandcamp if I want to own anything digital, or if I have the option to buy a record from bandcamp from an artist I do that, especially with bandcamp Fridays this year.

I buy a fair amount of stuff from Bandcamp, but see that as separate to a streaming solution. Most people that I now use Spotify & will want a streaming service. Should we be encouraging people to stop using Spotify & maybe use an alternative service?
 
I know we have a lot of SAM Record fans on here so I just wanted to share that it looks like they have already sold out of their latest release, Ron Jefferson Choir. I put an order in through a local store, Honest Jon's, at the weekend so looks like a few places might have it. The samples sound fantastic, Buz Saviano's (who im not familiar with) guitar work is a stand-out that sounds killer.

 
I know we have a lot of SAM Record fans on here so I just wanted to share that it looks like they have already sold out of their latest release, Ron Jefferson Choir. I put an order in through a local store, Honest Jon's, at the weekend so looks like a few places might have it. The samples sound fantastic, Buz Saviano's (who im not familiar with) guitar work is a stand-out that sounds killer.


Acoustic Sounds has it.
 
TTL has a bunch of those Prestige Blue Vinyl reissues. Are they worth getting (for the $25 price point)? I'm sure they're not audiophile or anything, but I don't really splurge on those anyway.
 
I know we have a lot of SAM Record fans on here so I just wanted to share that it looks like they have already sold out of their latest release, Ron Jefferson Choir. I put an order in through a local store, Honest Jon's, at the weekend so looks like a few places might have it. The samples sound fantastic, Buz Saviano's (who im not familiar with) guitar work is a stand-out that sounds killer.


I ordered from Scott Nangle, although didn't realise it wasn't in stock at the time. I hope it comes through 🤞
 
I ordered from Scott Nangle, although didn't realise it wasn't in stock at the time. I hope it comes through 🤞
The label is starting to be appreciated in the US more and more, so I imagine Fred is sending a considerable chunk over there nowadays as well. I imagine the Scott Nagle will have them, its just on Sam Records website where I saw it was sold out. Looks to be a killer one too!
 
The label is starting to be appreciated in the US more and more, so I imagine Fred is sending a considerable chunk over there nowadays as well. I imagine the Scott Nagle will have them, its just on Sam Records website where I saw it was sold out. Looks to be a killer one too!

Jazz Messengers have great shipping rates for the US. Right now they only have 4 records on stock but they'll certainly have more soon.
 
These are Pure Pleasure, right?

That The World of Children record was release a few (?) years ago and I think I have it lying around somewhere-- this is one of those times where I wished I actually organized my records instead of my current system, which is by smell. (jk that'd be more organized than how it actually is).

The three were released in the last years, all three officially (IIRC) but I couldn't found a lot of information about the sources. I ended waiting for these potential Pure Pleasure releases and I am glad I did.
 
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