kvetcha
Well-Known Member
Welcome!
Darlington Labs MM-6 USA Tour
- Thread starter HiFi Guy
- Start date
TrainFan73
Frothy
Alrighty, 2 things:
1. listening to my mono Ray Charles - Greatest Hits right now. Mono switch does exactly what I suspected it would do, it cuts down on surface noise.
2. @MattHasIdeas is next on the list. He has not pm’d me his deets. Also looks like he hasn’t posted since mid-July. How should I proceed @HiFi Guy
1. listening to my mono Ray Charles - Greatest Hits right now. Mono switch does exactly what I suspected it would do, it cuts down on surface noise.
2. @MattHasIdeas is next on the list. He has not pm’d me his deets. Also looks like he hasn’t posted since mid-July. How should I proceed @HiFi Guy
TrainFan73
Frothy
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that the mono switch is the most astounding difference I’ve noticed with the darlington. My vg-/g+ copy of Charles sounds VG+. Which is pretty awesome because visual it’s a best an f.
TrainFan73
Frothy
Final thoughts, the Darlington definitely out performs the Pluto but we knew that. It has a bigger stage image overall and the bass is much improved.
At this time, I’m completely unsure if it’s worth the cost to upgrade for me as I may have found the limits of the Sony receiver which makes me rethink my current plans on what to grab next on my upgrade path.
It seems to favor classic rock and acoustic instruments most. It definitely did not struggle with anything I threw at it. However, certain records with heavy effects or synthesizers sounded a bit weird. That might just be my set up though.
At this time, I’m completely unsure if it’s worth the cost to upgrade for me as I may have found the limits of the Sony receiver which makes me rethink my current plans on what to grab next on my upgrade path.
It seems to favor classic rock and acoustic instruments most. It definitely did not struggle with anything I threw at it. However, certain records with heavy effects or synthesizers sounded a bit weird. That might just be my set up though.
TrainFan73
Frothy
@debianlinux pm me some deets or I guess we could meet up…
TrainFan73
Frothy
All packed up and ready to go out to @debianlinux tomorrow.
dbarila
Well-Known Member
Now that I'm settled in the new house...can I get on this train?
Added
debianlinux
Well-Known Member
Arrived today. I'm in some shit with getting a car back online so probably can't get any quiet time until Monday. I went ahead and plugged it in though, so there's no excuses about it needing any warmup.
debianlinux
Well-Known Member
Initial results were surprising to say the least. I came into this expecting to buy a MM-6, lol. I expected the Marantz onboard phono to be just passable. I expected a lower noise floor, greater separation, and better dynamics out of the MM-6. It did deliver a lower noise floor.
Before going any further I do want to disclaim that I am using a Marantz SR5013 AVR as my amplifier (with a Technics 1210GR). The MM-6 was connected to the CD input. I did not dig around in any settings and seeing as I have never used this input it is entirely possible that there is some under the hood digital processing taking place on this input that is skewing the results. I still want to dig into this; I am certain there's some means of doing a pure pass-through and once I enable this feature I may very well have a completely different set of results.
My first test track is not only one that I know every minute detail of from having heard it on many systems hundreds of times but also is one that is absolutely wall of sound in terms of total frequencies represented at any given time with lots of dynamic range and literal layers upon layers of sounds. This track promises to test the limits of any system in a variety of ways:
I played first on the Marantz to understand that the track is overall quite cohesive with a ton of bass extension across the board (I'm using a pair of Elac F6.2 with the Elac 3010 sub). All the different pieces that Maya brings to build this track are very well integrated tonally, nothing feels like it is stepping on top of anything else. I then moved to the MM-6 and while some sounds were immediately more present I would describe the overall tone as far more laid back and a lot of bass impact was lost. That tonal integration was lost to some extent, and some things felt like they were really mixed together as opposed to close compliments that build.
I went back and forth several times. The Marantz makes the opening keys sound like motherfucking keys, yo. Like this bitch has turned the keyboard way the fuck up and is setting the groove right into your brain straight from the start. It sounds like I am in a club listening to a PA set of speakers. Maya could be hitting these keys right there in the room with me. There's lots of air in and around them. I don't know keyboards that well but for someone who did we're getting enough signature here that a seasoned person could identify the exact model being used or what emulation was being used for it. The MM-6 throws almost all of that out, it's quite metallic sounding across all things treble and that thing @Lee Newman was talking about as far as electronic music sounding more electronic is very true here.
Now, the bass is an other interesting angle. This track brings it in spades. There's the main kick drum, there's the lilting, walking bass, and there's the rhythmic sub bass. The Marantz is clearly a little muddier here although the lilting parts cause way more of a seasick feeling that I am certain Maya is trying to create. The MM-6 handles the bass well, it is present and never drops out and is absolutely never muddy at all. Overall, though, in everything it does, it feels compressed. the MM-6 feels cleaner like it won't let any one thing stand out, forced cohesiveness, like say a CD. IMO, the bass is too laid back. This track is supposed to heave you around with bass while your head swirls to the keys and vocals.
So back to the keys. At about 3:08 a repeating key riff appears that runs till the end. On the Marantz the characteristics of these keys as actual keys is very prominent. They just sound like some electronic mash on the MM-6. Like, if I didn't know any better this would probably be fine. It has elements of The Prodigy or Underworld where samples are processed, cut and fitted such that it's more of a sound than a character. The Marantz makes it obvious Maya played this riff on her own keyboard and then looped it and applied effects live.
Overall, this track is about juxtaposition. The bass and the keys and the treble all occupy their own corners with the listener in the middle being pulled and spun around. The Marantz 100% delivers this dynamic. Close your eyes and you can smell the sweat in a nightclub, you can feel that weird sense of the bass bins vibrating the metal roofing in the place. The MM-6 dispenses with this entire feel. It becomes like listening to the same track on maybe some really good laptop speakers or something where it all gets homogenized.
For fun I switched the system over to Spotify and played the same track (also to get the timestamp for the key passage). Playing the vinyl is still leagues ahead regardless which preamp is used although a lot more of the characteristics the MM-6 brought forth are present in the digital stream. It's less airy, harsher on the treble. It still is well separated while delivering an integrated experience and all those super cool swirlies are intact. But hey, that key passage at 3:08 is again an electronic mess.
Before going any further I do want to disclaim that I am using a Marantz SR5013 AVR as my amplifier (with a Technics 1210GR). The MM-6 was connected to the CD input. I did not dig around in any settings and seeing as I have never used this input it is entirely possible that there is some under the hood digital processing taking place on this input that is skewing the results. I still want to dig into this; I am certain there's some means of doing a pure pass-through and once I enable this feature I may very well have a completely different set of results.
My first test track is not only one that I know every minute detail of from having heard it on many systems hundreds of times but also is one that is absolutely wall of sound in terms of total frequencies represented at any given time with lots of dynamic range and literal layers upon layers of sounds. This track promises to test the limits of any system in a variety of ways:
I played first on the Marantz to understand that the track is overall quite cohesive with a ton of bass extension across the board (I'm using a pair of Elac F6.2 with the Elac 3010 sub). All the different pieces that Maya brings to build this track are very well integrated tonally, nothing feels like it is stepping on top of anything else. I then moved to the MM-6 and while some sounds were immediately more present I would describe the overall tone as far more laid back and a lot of bass impact was lost. That tonal integration was lost to some extent, and some things felt like they were really mixed together as opposed to close compliments that build.
I went back and forth several times. The Marantz makes the opening keys sound like motherfucking keys, yo. Like this bitch has turned the keyboard way the fuck up and is setting the groove right into your brain straight from the start. It sounds like I am in a club listening to a PA set of speakers. Maya could be hitting these keys right there in the room with me. There's lots of air in and around them. I don't know keyboards that well but for someone who did we're getting enough signature here that a seasoned person could identify the exact model being used or what emulation was being used for it. The MM-6 throws almost all of that out, it's quite metallic sounding across all things treble and that thing @Lee Newman was talking about as far as electronic music sounding more electronic is very true here.
Now, the bass is an other interesting angle. This track brings it in spades. There's the main kick drum, there's the lilting, walking bass, and there's the rhythmic sub bass. The Marantz is clearly a little muddier here although the lilting parts cause way more of a seasick feeling that I am certain Maya is trying to create. The MM-6 handles the bass well, it is present and never drops out and is absolutely never muddy at all. Overall, though, in everything it does, it feels compressed. the MM-6 feels cleaner like it won't let any one thing stand out, forced cohesiveness, like say a CD. IMO, the bass is too laid back. This track is supposed to heave you around with bass while your head swirls to the keys and vocals.
So back to the keys. At about 3:08 a repeating key riff appears that runs till the end. On the Marantz the characteristics of these keys as actual keys is very prominent. They just sound like some electronic mash on the MM-6. Like, if I didn't know any better this would probably be fine. It has elements of The Prodigy or Underworld where samples are processed, cut and fitted such that it's more of a sound than a character. The Marantz makes it obvious Maya played this riff on her own keyboard and then looped it and applied effects live.
Overall, this track is about juxtaposition. The bass and the keys and the treble all occupy their own corners with the listener in the middle being pulled and spun around. The Marantz 100% delivers this dynamic. Close your eyes and you can smell the sweat in a nightclub, you can feel that weird sense of the bass bins vibrating the metal roofing in the place. The MM-6 dispenses with this entire feel. It becomes like listening to the same track on maybe some really good laptop speakers or something where it all gets homogenized.
For fun I switched the system over to Spotify and played the same track (also to get the timestamp for the key passage). Playing the vinyl is still leagues ahead regardless which preamp is used although a lot more of the characteristics the MM-6 brought forth are present in the digital stream. It's less airy, harsher on the treble. It still is well separated while delivering an integrated experience and all those super cool swirlies are intact. But hey, that key passage at 3:08 is again an electronic mess.
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debianlinux
Well-Known Member
I wanted to give the mono switch a workout.
I picked 2 records, The Turtles' Happy Together which is fake stereo and The best of The Animals which is proper mono.
On Happy Together (the eponymous track we all know by heart) the Marantz blew the MM-6 completely out of the water. It was clearly superior in every way. The MM-6 sounded like a flat, tinny cassette recording. I actually played on the MM-6 first so I was taken aback when I switched to the Marantz. Dynamic range, separation, liveliness, everything was better. On the MM-6 I clearly heard the Recorder as a separate instrument. On the Marantz right out of the gate I was hearing trumpets and background vocals that were practically invisible on the MM-6. there was a falsetto in his voice that disappeared on the MM-6. The song crescendos at the end and man, I forgot about that listening on the MM-6, it was just one flat thing all the way through and the Marantz made it obvious that this song builds and crashes loudly at the end.
So, the mono switch. It did "something" here. It made the vocals seem more present. Maybe it V-curved the EQ? I can't quantify what it was doing but I can say there was an apparent change when flipping the switch back and forth. Again, this is fake stereo record.
For the Animals I focused on We Gotta Get Out of This Place and I'm Crying. this record is not in the best shape and has lots of visible surface scuffing. Surface noise is omnipresent regardless how dense the mix gets. the Marantz brings it all out and lets it hang there in your face. The MM-6, which I am seeing loves to take things away, did a decent job reducing the surface noise along with everything else. Here, the mono switch had zero apparent effect on a true mono record.
Similarly, while MM-6 actually sounds good, the Marantz takes it up 15 notches. The only good thing I can say about the MM-6 here is that the lo-fi qualities of the recording they were using are very diminished. Hell it sounds like a remaster. On the Marantz the sound board sounds saturated like they are in the orange constantly and clipping red from time to time. It has that 60's garage feel throughout. The MM-6 compresses all this. It actually sounds good if you don't know better because it's way less noisy overall. but the enrgy is sucked right out. On the Marantz there's a lot of air and reverb. when the guitar rips up on I'm crying it's like it comes from a whole other corner of the room and it's full of angst. It's just in the mix and quite pedestrian on the MM-6.
I picked 2 records, The Turtles' Happy Together which is fake stereo and The best of The Animals which is proper mono.
On Happy Together (the eponymous track we all know by heart) the Marantz blew the MM-6 completely out of the water. It was clearly superior in every way. The MM-6 sounded like a flat, tinny cassette recording. I actually played on the MM-6 first so I was taken aback when I switched to the Marantz. Dynamic range, separation, liveliness, everything was better. On the MM-6 I clearly heard the Recorder as a separate instrument. On the Marantz right out of the gate I was hearing trumpets and background vocals that were practically invisible on the MM-6. there was a falsetto in his voice that disappeared on the MM-6. The song crescendos at the end and man, I forgot about that listening on the MM-6, it was just one flat thing all the way through and the Marantz made it obvious that this song builds and crashes loudly at the end.
So, the mono switch. It did "something" here. It made the vocals seem more present. Maybe it V-curved the EQ? I can't quantify what it was doing but I can say there was an apparent change when flipping the switch back and forth. Again, this is fake stereo record.
For the Animals I focused on We Gotta Get Out of This Place and I'm Crying. this record is not in the best shape and has lots of visible surface scuffing. Surface noise is omnipresent regardless how dense the mix gets. the Marantz brings it all out and lets it hang there in your face. The MM-6, which I am seeing loves to take things away, did a decent job reducing the surface noise along with everything else. Here, the mono switch had zero apparent effect on a true mono record.
Similarly, while MM-6 actually sounds good, the Marantz takes it up 15 notches. The only good thing I can say about the MM-6 here is that the lo-fi qualities of the recording they were using are very diminished. Hell it sounds like a remaster. On the Marantz the sound board sounds saturated like they are in the orange constantly and clipping red from time to time. It has that 60's garage feel throughout. The MM-6 compresses all this. It actually sounds good if you don't know better because it's way less noisy overall. but the enrgy is sucked right out. On the Marantz there's a lot of air and reverb. when the guitar rips up on I'm crying it's like it comes from a whole other corner of the room and it's full of angst. It's just in the mix and quite pedestrian on the MM-6.
debianlinux
Well-Known Member
After writing all that up I am convinced I will need to reassess any processing potentially occurring on the CD input. At the very least I expected the MM-6 to sound different but not better. I'm having trouble believing the Marantz is capable of absolutely owning the MM-6 considering the praise it's getting. The only other explanation is that phono inputs are shit everywhere and I am blessed with the one I have. In that way the MM-6 is a big improvement on the vast majority of shit inputs out there?
One series of questions did come to mind. This unit shipped with feet on the bottom. Is it it possible to get it with the feet unattached and is it advisable to stand the unit on its' side? Is one side a better one to be faced down than the other if so?
One series of questions did come to mind. This unit shipped with feet on the bottom. Is it it possible to get it with the feet unattached and is it advisable to stand the unit on its' side? Is one side a better one to be faced down than the other if so?
GStephenH
Active Member
Unless you are already using it, you can use the front left/right of the 7.1 channel input for this. It is just accepting the pre-amped signal from the source without any further digital processing. It is an analog input.
debianlinux
Well-Known Member
Rear panel SR5013
You are referring to the pair of inputs directly to the right (in the linked image) of the CD input I am currently using? What source am I selecting to hear this input? Otherwise I was looking into using the "Pure Direct" feature which ostensibly drops all processing which TBH might not be so great since I think I am leaning pretty strongly on some of the Room EQ/Phasing and such as my room is basically designed by an audiophobe.
Here's my available inputs per the remote:
Basic operation SR5013
krichard2496
New Member
This sounds like a good potential test.
While our return rate on all models is VERY low (under 5%), it is not "zero" and there is some factor for taste.
But, your current results seem way out of line with the vast majority of feedback. And this current MM-6 is improved from the first models where some people found the bass a little bit soft.
Regarding the feet, if you purchase it, you can unstick the feet. A solvent will dissolve any remaining adhesive (or request we ship it without feet).
If you want to stand it on it's edge, the left side should be down (so that the logo has Darlington lower than the Labs). This is best thermally and allows the AC inlet cord to be near the bottom and away from other cords.
kvetcha
Well-Known Member
Phono gain can also influence your perception more than you’d expect. I’d use a db meter to ensure you’re matching volume levels.
krichard2496
New Member
You might also consider the effect of "listening fatigue" on the A/B.
Meaning, we find that you can run our units much "hotter" than the typical built-in-IC-phono preamp found in these receivers.
So, consider matching volume by "how high you can listen before you wince". This is probably more of an accurate long-term test.
debianlinux
Well-Known Member
Right. I did do this. I have a SPL meter and I averaged it out by notching the volume up about 5 marks for the MM-6 at first. In the end I even tried making the MM-6 definitely louder than the Marantz to try to give it an edge it could never take. I could turn down the gain on the Marantz phono input but that seems kind of out of line and even then I think it would win. I probably should have noted earlier though that I was performing volume matching.
debianlinux
Well-Known Member
Loving this input. Truth be told, I want a moderate improvement on what I have at a modest cost. I want the MM-6 to win here. I will give it some more time trying some different things. I can likely give some more critical time to it on Wednesday. Meanwhile coming up with things to try so I am prepped for that day is good.