dhodo
Well-Known Member
Seeing a lot of artists echoing this sentiment about the "blackout."
I might be interested. When are you starting?If anyone is interested in going through the exercise together, please let me know.
Yeah, I'm making that distinction, but only to the extent that I still think the institution is an inexorable force on the individual.As @Indymisanthrope wrote, one thing is the institution, the other are the people. I might be naive but I believe in people and that with education, we can all (police, people from all colours) change things. Code of silence is THE thing that must be changed in police force. Once one policeman or woman feels free to denounce his racist, violent or misogynist colleague, things will change. The question is, does the system and the people who benefits from this system, wants these changes? Of course not.
I might be interested. When are you starting?
Seeing a lot of artists echoing this sentiment about the "blackout."
Yeah, physical copies appear to be on backorder at all the usual suspects, but I can do the Kindle version. If anybody else is interested, the Kindle list price is just $2.99.❤
I have the book. But it took a few weeks to get - I think I ordered it about a month ago and got it last week. Would you be so kind as to see when you might be able to get your hands on the book?
This is a depressing but good read:I might be interested. When are you starting?
Yeah, I'm making that distinction, but only to the extent that I still think the institution is an inexorable force on the individual.
I saw a tweet yesterday (probably something that @GritNGlitter retweeted, all the good tweets in my feed are just tweets that she saw first) that it's great that white people are now willing to say that an institution is systemically racist, but none of their proposed solutions are systemic in nature. An institution is at risk if it's structured in a way so that racism can gain this much of a foothold in the first place.
The kindle version should work. There is a fair amount of journaling to do - so a notebook/diary type situation would be needed with the kindle.Yeah, physical copies appear to be on backorder at all the usual suspects, but I can do the Kindle version. If anybody else is interested, the Kindle list price is just $2.99.
Except it absolutely is not. People join police forces. They can also quit--which we don't see so-called "good cops" do very often, even when ordered to abuse the people they supposedly serve. No black person can just stop being black. Racism is 100% different than despising an institution.I agree with you. Saying "fuck the police" puts you at the same level as a racist who says "fuck black people".
I still have to disagree. As @Indymisanthrope wrote, one thing is the institution, the other are the people. I might be naive but I believe in people and that with education, we can all (police, people from all colours) change things. Code of silence is THE thing that must be changed in police force. Once one policeman or woman feels free to denounce his racist, violent or misogynist colleague, things will change. The question is, does the system and the people who benefits from this system, wants these changes? Of course not.
I mean, can you think of a way to divorce our systems--particularly law enforcement and the justice system--from the racism that underpins them without radically altering the country into something new?Unless you think we can create a country never seen before.
So I hear this all time time, but I feel like you're not actually saying "eliminate any police department". Because every civilized country in the world has a police department. Unless you think we can create a country never seen before.
My understanding is that the idea should be "break down the current police structure, and rebuild it as something that serves the community rather than "polices" it.".
My issue is kind of the words here as "abolish the police" is kind of a non starter for the vast majority of the country. Yes we have to break something in order to rebuild it, but these issues are complex and it comes across as a bit glib.
I'm definitely for abolishing US police and policing. I'm not aware of the details of every police body in the world, but the "civilized" countries with even a whiff of colonialism probably need to abolish theirs too. I realize that it's a radical position, and it definitely requires a lot of other deconstruction and paradigm shifts, but it isn't impossible, and we certainly can't make progress without discussing the breadth of possibilities.I'm stupid and posted this without having read that you said "The call to abolish police isn't a call to end societal protection and accountability, but to replace policing with non-racist systems that actually work.".
My point stands that the phrasing is being misconceived and it's kind of leading to further polarization
I'm in. I often remain silent, too silent, on these matters as I don't know what my place is in the conversation, but I want to be a good and better advocate than I am. This sounds helpful. I bought the Kindle book and am ready to go when others are!I think we need to remember to center black voices. I need to remember that too.
Layla F Saad is a black woman that is doing so much work to educate. White people, we need to do the work. Please. I urge you to look into ordering a copy of Me and White Supremacy and to do her 30 day exercise. I did it last year and learned so much about the racism and prejudices I hold inside because of our society. And how I must continually work to undo it and to learn.
LAYLA F. SAAD
I am soon going to do the exercise again. If anyone is interested in going through the exercise together, please let me know. It is really tough work that made me very emotional several times. I found it helpful to have someone doing it at the same time. We could then bounce our ideas and thoughts and questions off of each other without asking our black friends to undertake even more emotional labor. If you do not want to do the exercise with me, I'm totally cool with that, it isn't about me. It is about doing the work - just do find someone to go through it with.
If black people are telling us, time and time and time and time again that the justice system is prejudicial and is racist, we must believe them. Sure, there are good cops. But I equate saying that with saying, "All lives matter". It is not the time. We are at this point because the bad cops have more weight than the good cops. I'm not asking anyone to turn on their family and friends because they are cops. I am asking everyone to think, to have the uncomfortable discussions, to do the work, to listen. And if you don't agree with the movement, maybe just don't say anything?
no matter anyone's POV on the Police I think we should all be able to support this statment.Fuck Red Delicious apples
no matter anyone's POV on the Police I think we should all be able to support this statment.
Also fuck the police
Hi! Sorry, Mr. Glitter and I dug through our library for recommendations and talked about different orgs, and then we decided to get drunk and watch Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. instead of getting back online, hahaha.I know this is a position you hold/have held; what are those systems? More importantly, how do we prevent the insular culture of self-preservation from growing within them? Does it come down to ending the state's monopoly on force?
Not arguing, I just genuinely haven't done the reading on the subject of alternative proposals.
Edit: to that end, if you have any recommended reading, let me know.
What does this actually look like though? Genuinely curious...what do you replace it with? The militarization of police absolutely needs to be dissolved. But what goes in the place of police? Are there any examples of nations that have no police force whatsoever (if that is even what you are referring to?) EDIT: I think your above post recommending reading material may be the best bet at answering this question. Really appreciate you sharing those resources.I'm definitely for abolishing US police and policing. I'm not aware of the details of every police body in the world, but the "civilized" countries with even a whiff of colonialism probably need to abolish theirs too. I realize that it's a radical position, and it definitely requires a lot of other deconstruction and paradigm shifts, but it isn't impossible, and we certainly can't make progress without discussing the breadth of possibilities.
When we look at what police actually do and don't do, it becomes more and more apparent that they are not the essential body they want us to think they are. By law they are not required to protect people--even school resource officers are not required to engage with school shooters. They do not prevent crimes and they barely solve crimes. And even among the "solved" crimes we know many people (especially POC, especially indigenous and black folk) are railroaded and wrongly convicted. Or killed before they ever see a police station.
Policing is not broken, it is a system designed to oppress. I believe it is important to approach policing from a lens of abolition, because otherwise "reform" measures like training actually just expand police budgets and powers. Emergency mental health responders, for example, are not just better trained police, but a radical refocus on the well-being of individuals and not just convenience of the majority--it's a whole different concept of peace keeping.
After 5ish years, I think you know I'm not a pie-in-the-sky idealist. I am not all-or-nothing and I certainly vote pragmatically to reduce harm instead of letting perfect be the enemy of good. But I do believe we need to abolish the modern police force. As much of a non-starter as it was for me for decades (I have family members and dear friends in law enforcement roles across the country), I did change my mind. I recognize that we aren't likely to see progress in my lifetime, but I want to expose as many people to the possibility as I can.
I hope this fits here but if not, that's ok as well. Just needed to let my brain unwind.