TrainFan73
Frothy
Prince definitely did it with Camille and all the various characters he did. Jamie Starr and TAFKAP were more about being able to do what he wanted than doing anything as a different person/character.
The artist is the character in that case.
I think singing a song whose lyrics are narrated by a character is different from pretending to be that character.So Nick Cave is a murderer? I’m just saying there is a lot of artiface there too.
100! I'm also unapologetically biased.Prince definitely did it with Camille and all the various characters he did. Jamie Starr and TAFKAP were more about being able to do what he wanted than doing anything as a different person/character.
I don't think this one is a particularly good example, since it was a genuine statement about the politics of the music industry and how others profit off of/own the products of musicians' labor. The fact that it was coopted and turned into a joke by so many people diluted the impact of the message and led people to the incorrect conclusion that it was an act of ego-driven celebrity mania.TAFKAP...more about being able to do what he wanted than doing anything as a different person/character.
And those are all treated as separate projects; whether you declare King Geedorah is "DOOM as King Geedorah" or "Daniel Dumille as King Geedorah," we can all agree Take Me to Your Leader is a King Geedorah project.But DOOM is not just DOOM. He's also Zev Love X, King Geedorah, Viktor Vaughn and Metal Fingers.
This makes me think of Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy. This phenomena of intense artistic performance in juxtaposition to the "off stage" persona would be suitable to look at through the lens of Dionysian frenzy, transcendence, and the ultimate tearing apart of one's self in artistic revelry.Cave's stage persona is definitely a character. The intensity of his performance is markedly different from who he is off stage,
But DOOM is not just DOOM. He's also Zev Love X, King Geedorah, Viktor Vaughn and Metal Fingers.
Right; that's akin to a musician recording as a band as opposed to being a solo artist. It signals a different artistic approach, not just a character. Although, to get somewhat meta, you could probably make an argument along the lines that Viktor Vaughn was a character that DOOM was portraying, not that Daniel Dumille was temporarily adopting.And those are all treated as separate projects; whether you declare King Geedorah is "DOOM as King Geedorah" or "Daniel Dumille as King Geedorah," we can all agree Take Me to Your Leader is a King Geedorah project.
That was his own fault though. He was in charge of the whole operation at that point and very much wanted it viewed as if he was a different artist. The Jam of the Year tour was going to retire all the old Prince Songs. The Vault and Come albums were presented as the death of Prince and obligations to WB. Those were very self inflicted wounds.I don't think this one is a particularly good example, since it was a genuine statement about the politics of the music industry and how others profit off of/own the products of musicians' labor. The fact that it was coopted and turned into a joke by so many people diluted the impact of the message and led people to the incorrect conclusion that it was an act of ego-driven celebrity mania.
Would love to hear @TenderLovingKiller® and @Indymisanthrope ’s thoughts on FJM in this light. His stage persona makes him unbearable to me.This makes me think of Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy. This phenomena of intense artistic performance in juxtaposition to the "off stage" persona would be suitable to look at through the lens of Dionysian frenzy, transcendence, and the ultimate tearing apart of one's self in artistic revelry.
If you've ever stood a few feet away from Nick Cave while he's on stage, I think you'd already be convinced of this idea. He's *extremely* effective at wielding his stage presence to generate a...I don't know, an "emotional field" that envelops the audience.This makes me think of Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy. This phenomena of intense artistic performance in juxtaposition to the "off stage" persona would be suitable to look at through the lens of Dionysian frenzy, transcendence, and the ultimate tearing apart of one's self in artistic revelry.
Yes, I've no disagreement regarding your assertion. Rather, it sparked musings of my own regarding Nietzsche's own thoughts on the creation of art. It could easily be applied to many musical artists.If you've ever stood a few feet away from Nick Cave while he's on stage, I think you'd already be convinced of this idea. He's *extremely* effective at wielding his stage presence to generate a...I don't know, an "emotional field" that envelops the audience.
And those are all treated as separate projects; whether you declare King Geedorah is "DOOM as King Geedorah" or "Daniel Dumille as King Geedorah," we can all agree Take Me to Your Leader is a King Geedorah project.
He's so unbearable to me that I refuse to learn enough about him to be able to articulate an informed opinion.Would loose to hear @TenderLovingKiller® and @Indymisanthrope ’s thoughts on FJM in this light. His stage persona makes him unbearable to me.
Yes & no; he was also a weird little guy that lived in Minnesota and wore purple and was effete and hypersexual, and when you're that person already, changing your name to an unpronounceable symbol is a risky move that, once initiated, you may not be able to control. I mean...think about the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit. That was a case of serious injury, and reasonable conditions for a settlement. But the narrative was stolen for the sake of punchlines.That was his own fault though. He was in charge of the whole operation at that point and very much wanted it viewed as if he was a different artist. The Jam of the Year tour was going to retire all the old Prince Songs. The Vault and Come albums were presented as the death of Prince and obligations to WB. Those were very self inflicted wounds.
The best way to do the hot take thread is to lob a nuclear bomb and then put the thread on ignore for a few weeks.I'm loving this discussion, and as is typical any time I lob a hot take bomb into a room I find myself immediately amending, hemming and hawing, and otherwise realizing all the grey areas on the margins of surety.
I think there's always some inherent artifice in being a performer. Even a musician who is going onstage by their legal name, singing songs directly taken from experience and asserted as truth; that person is still presenting themselves through some manner of filter and making choices in the image they wish to convey. And a shifting image is part of being a performer and evolving your art, be that minor equipment/recording changes or straight-up image overhauls. There's a push-pull, a sort of Alan-Alda-inCrime-And-Punishment "bend vs. break" scale which varies from artist to artist, from reinvention to reinvention. Madonna or Dylan can go through drastic image changes which feel like a natural extension of the unknowability at their core, but it took Weird Al (construct as he may be) twenty years to shave the stache and put in contacts.
It's a form of "ick," and for me the ick creeps in when the presentation of a character/persona takes precedence over the musical product itself.
Sorry to butt in where uninvited but FJM is in back of mind when I think of this topic. I think he remains relatively unchanged as a persona (haircut for the most recent album nonwithstanding), and the reinventions are more apparent in the music (apocalypse album, divorce album, jazzy crooner album).Would love to hear @TenderLovingKiller® and @Indymisanthrope ’s thoughts on FJM in this light. His stage persona makes him unbearable to me.
That's the pop world in a nutshell (non-derogatory), isn't it? Rap, too. You're deliberately putting on an image in order to sell a mystique or represent something larger for people to buy into when they choose to stan.Also are there any artists putting on a persona to be more commercially successful? Like is that a thing? Sia is the only example where I think I could make an argument for that.
I tried to avoid bringing him up but it was really FJM that had me initially think about the idea of rock star personas. When I first heard of what he was doing it turned me off, but after hearing the music and reflecting on the nature of rock stars as performance artist, I realized what he was doing was no different than Dylan, Bowie, Many rappers, Kiss, Etc... Its all part of the performance FJM just overtly acknowledged that it was all a facade up front instead of being coy about it.Would love to hear @TenderLovingKiller® and @Indymisanthrope ’s thoughts on FJM in this light. His stage persona makes him unbearable to me.
Consciously? Yes, I think there are almost certainly some that do. But I think it's also likely the case that industry norms assert themselves in a manner that this is "how things are done," you know?Also are there any artists putting on a persona to be more commercially successful? Like is that a thing? Sia is the only example where I think I could make an argument for that.