Vinyl Me Please Essentials

RHANDMJ said:
Customers who want to return for a bent corner, or because the vinyl isn't as shiny as they like, that kind of stuff.
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Yeah I'm aware that in the ye olde days before Amazon's amazing no questions asked return practice that getting a refund from your local was an absolute pain in the ass- but in today's world, at these price points, if I get a crushed corner or a bad seam split on the jacket, better believe that is going back/getting a replacement. The jacket of a record is literally half of the product grading and a damaged jacket destroys it's value. If I'm buying M/M at $30-40 a pop, it's going to be mint. If I saw a seam split/crushed jacket copy sitting in a shop I wouldn't buy it, no reason I'm going to take one shipped to me.
Joe Mac said:
I’d raise a PayPal case or do a CC chargeback. Fuck em.
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The only downside here is get ready to totally walk away- lots of vendors blacklist after a chargeback because those really damage their rep with he CC vendor. I know that Sony will ban your account if you have an active chargeback. Idk if VMP goes that far, but CB is usually a last resort kind of thing.
 
TheThinWhiteDuke said:
Yeah I'm aware that in the ye olde days before Amazon's amazing no questions asked return practice that getting a refund from your local was an absolute pain in the ass- but in today's world, at these price points, if I get a crushed corner or a bad seam split on the jacket, better believe that is going back/getting a replacement. The jacket of a record is literally half of the product grading and a damaged jacket destroys it's value. If I'm buying M/M at $30-40 a pop, it's going to be mint. If I saw a seam split/crushed jacket copy sitting in a shop I wouldn't buy it, no reason I'm going to take one shipped to me.


The only downside here is get ready to totally walk away- lots of vendors blacklist after a chargeback because those really damage their rep with he CC vendor. I know that Sony will ban your account if you have an active chargeback. Idk if VMP goes that far, but CB is usually a last resort kind of thing.
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I agree on both of these really. Anyone who saw what was in my cubes would know I generally don't care much about sleeve condition and will consistently take advantage of damaged sleeve sale prices. However, if I'm buying a new record and paying new prices, it's not different to me than anything else where I expect it in the proverbial off-the-truck condition. No one is taking a car off the lot with a big gash on the top of it without a discount, if you buy a book at Barnes and Noble you don't get damaged copies (or vinyl for the most part, usually they take damaged items off the shelf entirely), etc. This is especially true with records being collectible items now. The equivalent of a seam split or crushed corner on a sport card or Funko Pop or sneaker destroys the value even worse than records.

And yeah, be careful with chargebacks. Fine if you're willing to burn a bridge with a retailer but it's a gamble.

Edit: To caveat this a bit, I do think there's room for judgment. Like, if I get a record from my local with a bit of a warp (playable) like internal sleeve splits, I'm not burdening them with a return for things like that. Obviously, if I buy something with damage visible and didn't see it that's on me. And even with retailers I like online I'll often ignore/accept some damage, but I'll never really begrudge someone for returning an item damaged in shipping and I think any retailer/club worth their salt should be budgeting for these situations by either improving mailing practices or holding extra stock for these scenarios. I'll just say if everyone shipped like, say, Plaid Room, I bet returns drop dramatically. I also feel like retailers certainly have the right to customize their return policies, though they open themselves up to complaints.
 
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I dunno maybe I'm just more accepting of mistakes, the price is bs though.. thank you 40 dollar vinyl (be like Mac and Peggy and make good quality vinyl pressings with reasonable prices, if that means 140g I'm fine with that).. i honestly don't view vinyl as a collector's item, I just like having it on on vinyl as (and Malachi of analog planet made a great review of that last 1975 album) splitting an album into sides can stop albums from feeling way too much and you can just enjoy the music and even in one sitting without thinking "oh wow this is long"
 
TheThinWhiteDuke said:
Yeah I'm aware that in the ye olde days before Amazon's amazing no questions asked return practice that getting a refund from your local was an absolute pain in the ass- but in today's world, at these price points, if I get a crushed corner or a bad seam split on the jacket, better believe that is going back/getting a replacement. The jacket of a record is literally half of the product grading and a damaged jacket destroys it's value. If I'm buying M/M at $30-40 a pop, it's going to be mint. If I saw a seam split/crushed jacket copy sitting in a shop I wouldn't buy it, no reason I'm going to take one shipped to me.
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Thank you for your contribution to ever escalating vinyl prices.
 
RHANDMJ said:
The standard in the industry is you send defects back on your dime, they replace or refund on theirs. Music Direct, Elusive Disc, Acoustic Sounds, everybody else has this policy. It would be more fair if they refunded your shipping where there is a legitimate defect, but that is very hard to determine or enforce and would just end up causing more grief.
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Music Direct will replace damaged LPs at their expense, including return shipping. They do state that "excessive LP return requests for minor flaws may result in restocking fees or restriction of LP purchases."

Acoustic Sounds will replace damaged/defective items at their expense — a pre paid return shipping label will be provided — and in turn pay the shipping costs of a replacement item.

I have returned an LP with a bad skip to MD, and a badly warped LP to AS. Both covered the return shipping cost. Same with Zia Records, 10,000 Hz Records, Deep Discount/get-importcds.
 
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RHANDMJ said:
Thank you for your contribution to ever escalating vinyl prices.
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I think there are 2 trains of thought here.

From your response to @TheThinWhiteDuke I get the impression that you are saying that we should all settle for less to keep the price of vinyl down. I would argue that it should be the manufacturers/distributors that improve their handling and quality to reduce the issues that lead to the need for replacements.
 
I just took store credit. I phrased it like this: "If you guys have absolutely zero plans of eeever repressing this to resolve the defect, then yeah I'll just take store credit."

They sent a refund with no other comment, so that's the end as far as I'm concerned. The defect happened and they don't plan to do anything about it
 
Jdiddlydawg said:
They sent a refund with no other comment, so that's the end as far as I'm concerned. The defect happened and they don't plan to do anything about it
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Yep, that sounds right. No reason to when the only people vocal about the defect are a minority. There's plenty of people on the sub who claim everything's fine, their copy if fine, thus there is no defect. It's so stupid.
 
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Selaws said:
I think there are 2 trains of thought here.

From your response to @TheThinWhiteDuke I get the impression that you are saying that we should all settle for less to keep the price of vinyl down. I would argue that it should be the manufacturers/distributors that improve their handling and quality to reduce the issues that lead to the need for replacements.
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Fine, but please read my earlier post. We can scream all we want, but the fact is - it's not gonna happen. Those 'quality' issues (which I really rarely experience) cannot be resolved. Won't happen. Simply not possible.

Bent corners and seam splits - if you want it shipped rather than going to the local store, it's gonna happen. Even if they were to encase your record in a vacuum sealed 100% tightly packed goose down package within a solid steel, impenetrable case, there will still be seam splits and bent corners.

And that solid steel shipping box will cost a lot more money. If I were a manufacturer, I would guess that not everyone would want to pay for that, so logically, I would look for a solution that is a happy medium between cost and risk. I have NEVER received a VMP package with a sem split or crushed corner. Not even a bent sticker.

I have no doubt that defects are defects, and there can and will continue to be entire pressing runs with problems. That's the way it is with equipment that is running several decades beyond it's service life with no parts to be found, or equipment that came from the Iron Curtain or third world countries that was not very well made to begin with, or newer equipment that is actually worse than the old stuff because you can't build them like they used to.

Vinyl, by nature, is an imperfect product. It always has been and is even more so now.

I don't think you should settle for less. I am simply suggesting that some expectations are not possible to meet and never will be, and that some others are verging into obsessive territory and hurt the cause rather than help it, and prices are the result.

The solutions are to either appreciate and embrace the imperfect nature, go back to perfect sound forever CD, or go to high-res digital which can be excellent. Vinyl isn't for everybody.
 
RHANDMJ said:
Fine, but please read my earlier post. We can scream all we want, but the fact is - it's not gonna happen. Those 'quality' issues (which I really rarely experience) cannot be resolved. Won't happen. Simply not possible.

Bent corners and seam splits - if you want it shipped rather than going to the local store, it's gonna happen. Even if they were to encase your record in a vacuum sealed 100% tightly packed goose down package within a solid steel, impenetrable case, there will still be seam splits and bent corners.

And that solid steel shipping box will cost a lot more money. If I were a manufacturer, I would guess that not everyone would want to pay for that, so logically, I would look for a solution that is a happy medium between cost and risk. I have NEVER received a VMP package with a sem split or crushed corner. Not even a bent sticker.

I have no doubt that defects are defects, and there can and will continue to be entire pressing runs with problems. That's the way it is with equipment that is running several decades beyond it's service life with no parts to be found, or equipment that came from the Iron Curtain or third world countries that was not very well made to begin with, or newer equipment that is actually worse than the old stuff because you can't build them like they used to.

Vinyl, by nature, is an imperfect product. It always has been and is even more so now.

I don't think you should settle for less. I am simply suggesting that some expectations are not possible to meet and never will be, and that some others are verging into obsessive territory and hurt the cause rather than help it, and prices are the result.

The solutions are to either appreciate and embrace the imperfect nature, go back to perfect sound forever CD, or go to high-res digital which can be excellent. Vinyl isn't for everybody.
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Sus. VMP CS for sure 😒
 
RHANDMJ said:
Fine, but please read my earlier post. We can scream all we want, but the fact is - it's not gonna happen. Those 'quality' issues (which I really rarely experience) cannot be resolved. Won't happen. Simply not possible.

Bent corners and seam splits - if you want it shipped rather than going to the local store, it's gonna happen. Even if they were to encase your record in a vacuum sealed 100% tightly packed goose down package within a solid steel, impenetrable case, there will still be seam splits and bent corners.

And that solid steel shipping box will cost a lot more money. If I were a manufacturer, I would guess that not everyone would want to pay for that, so logically, I would look for a solution that is a happy medium between cost and risk. I have NEVER received a VMP package with a sem split or crushed corner. Not even a bent sticker.

I have no doubt that defects are defects, and there can and will continue to be entire pressing runs with problems. That's the way it is with equipment that is running several decades beyond it's service life with no parts to be found, or equipment that came from the Iron Curtain or third world countries that was not very well made to begin with, or newer equipment that is actually worse than the old stuff because you can't build them like they used to.

Vinyl, by nature, is an imperfect product. It always has been and is even more so now.

I don't think you should settle for less. I am simply suggesting that some expectations are not possible to meet and never will be, and that some others are verging into obsessive territory and hurt the cause rather than help it, and prices are the result.

The solutions are to either appreciate and embrace the imperfect nature, go back to perfect sound forever CD, or go to high-res digital which can be excellent. Vinyl isn't for everybody.
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I understand what you are saying to a point, but why do some labels have constant issues whilst others have very few? If quality issues were to be universally accepted as the norm then surely we should be seeing a similar level of issues amongst all labels.

Labels such as SAM records quite literally check each record before it's sent out. Of course, from that point on its down to the distribution chain to ensure it isn't damaged, but in terms of pressing defects, warps, printing errors, spelling errors, etc they have it covered. Now, for records in a massive run I totally understand that labels won't pay for the manpower to check every single one (not that this makes it impossible) but even still there should be checks in place which obviously are not picking up issues when it comes to some releases for some labels.

The issue that sparked this conversation for me was VMP's Jazz Is Dead series (1-4 specifically) which have had really bad warps. I have shared photos of all 3 dish warps that I had on JID 2 here (clearly these are not minor as the photos should show). Now that is a press run of 500 and I can't believe I have been so unlucky to have received the only 3 with issues. They are so warped that just holding them is enough to tell there is an issue as pressing the centre causes it to pop in and out.

Cost is another thing entirely. If I'm paying £100+ for a high-end release (UHQR springs to mind) then I don't think it's reasonable to expect anything less than what is advertised. If someone was to receive a perfect copy then the next person received one with really bad warps, surface noise, etc, I think it's unreasonable to expect the second person to just shrug it off as being part of an imperfect medium.

At the very minimum, we should all expect to receive what was advertised when it comes to buying records. Taking the stance that we are to assume what we will receive will be less than this leads us on a slippery slope. Where does it even stop in that case, are we just to shrug off every issue?
 
RHANDMJ said:
Fine, but please read my earlier post. We can scream all we want, but the fact is - it's not gonna happen. Those 'quality' issues (which I really rarely experience) cannot be resolved. Won't happen. Simply not possible.

Bent corners and seam splits - if you want it shipped rather than going to the local store, it's gonna happen. Even if they were to encase your record in a vacuum sealed 100% tightly packed goose down package within a solid steel, impenetrable case, there will still be seam splits and bent corners.

And that solid steel shipping box will cost a lot more money. If I were a manufacturer, I would guess that not everyone would want to pay for that, so logically, I would look for a solution that is a happy medium between cost and risk. I have NEVER received a VMP package with a sem split or crushed corner. Not even a bent sticker.

I have no doubt that defects are defects, and there can and will continue to be entire pressing runs with problems. That's the way it is with equipment that is running several decades beyond it's service life with no parts to be found, or equipment that came from the Iron Curtain or third world countries that was not very well made to begin with, or newer equipment that is actually worse than the old stuff because you can't build them like they used to.

Vinyl, by nature, is an imperfect product. It always has been and is even more so now.

I don't think you should settle for less. I am simply suggesting that some expectations are not possible to meet and never will be, and that some others are verging into obsessive territory and hurt the cause rather than help it, and prices are the result.

The solutions are to either appreciate and embrace the imperfect nature, go back to perfect sound forever CD, or go to high-res digital which can be excellent. Vinyl isn't for everybody.
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Not buying this, you are way off base on several points. You see there WAS a period of time that you describe and long for- it was called 2008. As the vinyl industry picked up in popularity, the labels were mass producing records to meet this new demand and relatively cheaply; $15-20 for new LP's and maybe $25 for doubles. But with such convenience came terrible quality- garbage digital transfers, shit jackets and sleeves, near bootleg labels (Plain, 4 Men With Beards), pressing plants that gave 0 fucks about quality (Rainbo, United).

And what happened? Buyers spoke with their wallets. They were tired of the bullshit, they wanted quality pressings and masterings. The industry adjusted, guys like Bellman and Gray started getting booked for all major reissues. Plants like Optimal, Pallas, QRP, RTI got more and more business and it became a selling point on hype stickers. High end vendors started using better shippers, offering better customer service. Prices went up!!!, But so did quality.

As a friend of mine who owned a record store told me about doing online business, returns for things like seam splits, bends, etc is just cost of business. You are going to eat it sometimes but the goal is to retain business. You tell a customer that it's not your fault that the jacket split in shipping well that's great you won the battle, but they will never buy from you again, so you make it right. This isn't even unique to records- ask any chef how many meals they've comped over customers just not being happy with what they ordered- you think those chefs tell them to stick with Olive Garden because the alfredo sauce tastes the same every time? If this becomes enough of a problem for vendors they will adjust in other ways; they'll make better shippers (like Acoustic Sounds), they will offer options to ship outside the jacket, etc. Good businesses don't adapt by blaming their buyers for not enjoying what they are selling. It's never worked.

No, the solutions isn't "accept imperfection or gtfo". You have every right in the world to get what you pay for and no one should take you on a guilt trip laying the ever rising costs of a hobby on you. If VMP emailed everyone tomorrow and said "hey we reached an agreement with Pallas where they can handle demand for our Essentials but we are going to have to raise prices to $50 a month" bro memberships would SOAR. Because music collectors don't mind paying for quality, they have a problem paying for a lack of it.
 
TheThinWhiteDuke said:
Buyers spoke with their wallets
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no offence but that thing is the same reason we are in this mess... people wanted a shit ton more vinyl pressings because more people want vinyl only or limited edition colors or all this other stuff and thus Gz has to rush its releases in the multi thousands to make sure they reach the deadline (because if not everyone will complain about a delay and if they do everyone will complain about QC), and the pandemic made it worse because of the obvious late stage capitalism... what was important about 2008 was vinyl was getting more popular but wasn't NEARLY as huge as it is now, it was still very much a niche that audiophiles had. vinyl is much more mainstream so the voting with your wallet has so much less to little impact

TheThinWhiteDuke said:
If VMP emailed everyone tomorrow and said "hey we reached an agreement with Pallas where they can handle demand for our Essentials but we are going to have to raise prices to $50 a month" bro memberships would SOAR. Because music collectors don't mind paying for quality, they have a problem paying for a lack of it.
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for the audiophile circles around say steve hoffman or analog planet definitely but i have a big hunch they'd ALSO get huge DIP because of the increase to 50 a month being way too much for the casual collectors VMP also wants to sell to.
 
(also unrelated but not all GZ vinyl is horrible i was listening to porter robinsons nurture and it sounded fantastic.. the issue is I'm guessing so much quantity appealing to the newbie)
 
duke86fan said:
no offence but that thing is the same reason we are in this mess... people wanted a shit ton more vinyl pressings because more people want vinyl only or limited edition colors or all this other stuff and thus Gz has to rush its releases in the multi thousands to make sure they reach the deadline (because if not everyone will complain about a delay and if they do everyone will complain about QC), and the pandemic made it worse because of the obvious late stage capitalism... what was important about 2008 was vinyl was getting more popular but wasn't NEARLY as huge as it is now, it was still very much a niche that audiophiles had. vinyl is much more mainstream so the voting with your wallet has so much less to little impact
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This is my opinion from a lot of different factors, but I believe the rising quality level and pricing of the late 2000's is the reason that the vinyl resurgence continued, and didn't die out on the vine earlier. And GZ isn't anywhere close to the level of the infamous Rainbo and United.
 
duke86fan said:
(also unrelated but not all GZ vinyl is horrible i was listening to porter robinsons nurture and it sounded fantastic.. the issue is I'm guessing so much quantity appealing to the newbie)
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Yeah this. I can only think of one Gz album outside of all the vmp stuff that I've really had issues with. In my experience they're usually pretty decent when they're not working with vmp.
 
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