Political Discussion

[Enaz Fox]

I've spent the past couple days making peace with probably having to vote for Biden in November, that he's not as much of a loser as Bernie supporters would have me believe, and to be put off voting because of Biden is exactly what the people who got Trump elected want, that Bernie just didn't manage to connect with the people who he needed to this season, that Warren's not a "traitor" or whatever for not endorsing him immediately. I will happily vote for Biden come November.

Do I still get to be frustrated and disappointed?

I resonate with this. I'll end up voting for Biden like I did for Hillary/Obama but I'm going to have a hard time doing so and I think his nomination will further fill the divide between the youth and the DNC (Bloomberg would have been more difficult for me). I don't want a return to the time before Trump which is what I feel his entire pitch is; I'd much prefer us to continue moving forward. My three biggest issues, two of which are just smaller parts of much larger problems, in this election were the healthcare system, student debt/debt crisis and medical marijuana/the drug war. I don't agree with Joe's plans on a single one of those issues but I do think he is more fit to be our president than Trump. I hope at some point in my life I will be able to vote in a primary where there's a candidate my views align with. Bring on November.

 

[Captainfog]

Michigan turnout surpassed 2016's primary by a wide margin, and Biden improved on HRC's result by ~250K votes. Considering Trump won MI by just a shade over 10K votes, I'm not too sure this is great news for him. This seems like bitter Bernie Bro talk than anything else.

I have no skin in the game, you can elect who you want. I've always thought out of all the early front runners that Biden is worst choice to try and beat trump. My prediction is that Trump increases his margin of victory at the next election.

The wild card in all of this is the covid 19 virus.

 

[HiFi Guy]

Hillary was one of the most qualified candidates ever and the majority of people I know were reluctant to vote for her because she wasn't "likable".

“Likeable” actually is important here. When Americans are comfortable and happy, they spend money and the economic machine chugs along. When they aren’t happy, consumer confidence drops and the economy suffers.

Bill Clinton is a people person and it shows. The economy was good. People were happy. When Bush took over, one of the first things he did was a tax cut, as the economy had faltered somewhat. I took it as Bush trying to buy support from us.

Hillary doesn’t have the people skills necessary, IMO. The ability to do the job isn’t everything.

 

[Btsvinylfarm]

I agree with everything but the last line. People are entitled to be bummed when their candidate underperforms.

People are definitely entitled to be bummed. But this whole defeatist attitude, and take-my-ball-and-go-home mentality, is counterproductive.

I resonate with this. I'll end up voting for Biden like I did for Hillary/Obama but I'm going to have a hard time doing so and I think his nomination will further fill the divide between the youth and the DNC (Bloomberg would have been more difficult for me). I don't want a return to the time before Trump which is what I feel his entire pitch is; I'd much prefer us to continue moving forward.

To the bold: what youth? This myth that they vote in large enough numbers to matter is unfounded. That sucks, but it's true. Until they bother to engage, they can't be counted on as a core demographic. The calculus makes courting them a fools errand.

To the rest, you can't just "move forward" now. We have to repair the damage. We need to restore the ACA. We need to reinstitute some of the scrapped regulation. We need to build on the House majority and win back the Senate before we can pass any meaningful legislation.

And on healthcare, while I agree with the end goal of a universal coverage system, Bernie's plan to get there is simply unworkable and dangerous to progressive success in government. There's a lesson the Bernie crowd and m4A hardliners need to learn from ACA/Obamacare.

People freaked out when the ACA scrapped some junk healthcare plans. 1.1M are estimated to have been impacted. It caused one of the largest red waves in modern political history. The Dems lost the House, their super majority in the Senate, and eventually the Senate itself. It caused a stall of economic recovery legislation, and it likely cost the Dems a seat on SCOTUS by giving the gavel to McConnell. What do you think would happen if suddenly the Dems yanked 159M off their actually good coverage? The magnitude versus ACA is just insane. What do you think the outcome would be?

Progressive ideals are admirable, but you guys have no sound path to get there right now. You gotta think about this shit. It's why I preferred Pete's plan of "Medicare for all who want it", which is essentially a public option - I'd hope Biden adopts this. Let the public option compete with private care, and if it is as great as the left hopes, it will win the battle and through market competition eliminate private plans. But suddenly stripping 150M people's coverage would be a disaster.

 

[Btsvinylfarm]

I have no skin in the game, you can elect who you want. I've always thought out of all the early front runners that Biden is worst choice to try and beat trump. My prediction is that Trump increases his margin of victory at the next election

What HRC-won states do you think he picks up? Do you assume he holds all his 2016 states? How are you coming up with your electoral math?

This seems like sour grapes

 

[wokeupnew]

I think we are all underestimating how many people want to see Trump gone, and their #1 choice for that right now is Biden. They could be voting against a candidate that they agree with on issues (Bernie) but that doesn't matter to them. Biden doesn't have as much baggage as HRC had so I'm hopeful that people vote for Joe in November because they see him as likeable.

 

[Indymisanthrope]

I resonate with this. I'll end up voting for Biden like I did for Hillary/Obama but I'm going to have a hard time doing so and I think his nomination will further fill the divide between the youth and the DNC (Bloomberg would have been more difficult for me). I don't want a return to the time before Trump which is what I feel his entire pitch is

Not to diminish your feelings about this, just want to offer a different perspective. I don't see this as his pitch. I think his pitch is "I'm going to make sure America doesn't re-elect Trump and then hand over the reins to the next generation." I think that's what all this "I'm the bridge" stuff is about -- his goal is singular, to pull us out of a crisis and that's it.

I totally recognize that there are valid arguments that someone else could walk and chew gum at the same time, but the other candidates were also all less known quantities, so there was (in Biden's view) more of a risk that they would lose to Trump, and then not only do we not get a progressive agenda, we're even worse off.

Ideally Obama would have been the bridge. The first president never to have done any military service, the first black president, the first president born after 1960...all the ingredients were there. But since that didn't work out, rebooting and trying to pass the torch (exactly what Swalwell told Biden to do in one of the very first debates) a second time isn't a bad idea. If Biden decides to skip the Team of Rivals and instead creates a Team of Next Leaders? I'd be mostly okay with that.

 

[MikeH]

I think we are all underestimating how many people want to see Trump gone, and their #1 choice for that right now is Biden. They could be voting against a candidate that they agree with on issues (Bernie) but that doesn't matter to them. Biden doesn't have as much baggage as HRC had so I'm hopeful that people vote for Joe in November because they see him as likeable.

Trump is going to destroy Biden with all of the Hunter Biden stuff, whether it's true or not. The thing I don't understand at all is the people going from supporting Warren to moving over to Biden. Their policies are very very different and does go to show that likability is a factor.

 

[MikeH]

then hand over the reins to the next generation.

The issue I see with this is...what next generation? Biden is the youngest remaining male candidate for the Dems. Somehow no young, inspiring candidates are running. Maybe AOC gets there but I'm not really sure who fills the void of young leadership that gets the next generation inspired like Obama did.

 

[Indymisanthrope]

What do you think would happen if suddenly the Dems yanked 159M off their actually good coverage? The magnitude versus ACA is just insane. What do you think the outcome would be?

I think the concerns about our healthcare infrastructure's ability to deal with pandemics is more likely to make our country rethink this than Bernie Sanders is.

 

[Jorduck]

Seeing Biden win every county in my state (MO) was kind of surprising after it was so close in 2016. I obviously knew Biden was going to win the state this time around though. I had basically given up hope in the Sanders campaign before yesterday but still went out to vote. There was a single other person in my polling place when I got there (8:30 AM). I also think it's funny how many people are calling for Sanders to drop out and are saying the debates should be cancelled so the party can unite around Biden, after they shamed Sanders supporters for doing the same regarding Warren.

I still think Biden is a horrendous choice, but I guess I'll vote for him in November if only to not give the right a massive SC majority for the next 40 years without needing to pack the courts. I have next to no faith in him picking progressive judges but at least they probably won't try to reverse previous 'progressive' policy.

 

[Indymisanthrope]

The issue I see with this is...what next generation? Biden is the youngest remaining male candidate for the Dems. Somehow no young, inspiring candidates are running. Maybe AOC gets there but I'm not really sure who fills the void of young leadership that gets the next generation inspired like Obama did.

For now I see that getting pinned on Pete, Kamala Harris (a spring chicken at 55), and Cory Booker. AOC, Swalwell, Stacey Abrams ... they're out there, with varying levels of potential. The good thing* about a Biden presidency is that it gives us another 4 years to give some of those people some Cabinet positions or Senate seats or whatever to further establish their bona fides.

*Again, from a certain perspective.

 

[MikeH]

I think the concerns about our healthcare infrastructure's ability to deal with pandemics is more likely to make our country rethink this than Bernie Sanders is.

Aren't they a bit hand in hand though? The pandemic is making people realize that Bernie's plan is a potential important solution to the issues that COVID is creating. I mean...the US has only run 5,000 COVID tests so far and to put that into perspective, South Korea runs 10k per day. And this is mostly because the US Government refused to accept the testing kits from WHO so they could profit off of a US pharma company making and selling them instead...

 

[Dtknuckles]

I certainly wouldn't risk getting impeached to dig up dirt on an opponent I think I can easily beat without it.

At this point I think Trump is more motivated by humiliating people than actual logic.

 

[Indymisanthrope]

Aren't they a bit hand in hand though? The pandemic is making people realize that Bernie's plan is a potential important solution to the issues that COVID is creating. I mean...the US has only run 5,000 COVID tests so far and to put that into perspective, South Korea runs 10k per day. And this is mostly because the US Government refused to accept the testing kits from WHO so they could profit off of a US pharma company making and selling them instead...

Oh yeah, definitely. I meant more that it's easier for a certain contingent to ignore some old socialist scold who wants to tax them than it is to try to potentially deal with an overwhelmed private health system and simultaneously figure out what your insurance will cover. In a TRUE pandemic situation, that is. Up until now each person has had to individually deal with their own health crisis and their own insurance and yada yada yada -- what happens if/when we're all dealing with the same thing at the same time and clamoring for the government to subsidize the testing/treatment/vaccines?

 

[MikeH]

For now I see that getting pinned on Pete, Kamala Harris (a spring chicken at 55), and Cory Booker. AOC, Swalwell, Stacey Abrams ... they're out there, with varying levels of potential. The good thing* about a Biden presidency is that it gives us another 4 years to give some of those people some Cabinet positions or Senate seats or whatever to further establish their bona fides.

*Again, from a certain perspective.

None of those outside of AOC are really progressive candidates though and the younger generation seems to be more inspired by progressive ideals. The reason why there is a lot of apathy from young voters is A) it's very hard to vote in this country for a lot of people, B) they saw that their voice wasn't heard in the last election when the popular vote didn't really matter and C) the Dems and media keep pushing centrist, establishment candidates to keep the status quo.

 

[dhodo]

People freaked out when the ACA scrapped some junk healthcare plans. 1.1M are estimated to have been impacted. It caused one of the largest red waves in modern political history. The Dems lost the House, their super majority in the Senate, and eventually the Senate itself. It caused a stall of economic recovery legislation, and it likely cost the Dems a seat on SCOTUS by giving the gavel to McConnell. What do you think would happen if suddenly the Dems yanked 159M off their actually good coverage? The magnitude versus ACA is just insane. What do you think the outcome would be?

Blaming the outcome of the 2010 election purely on the actual real impacts of ACA is a reeeeeeeeach.

 

[Indymisanthrope]

None of those outside of AOC are really progressive candidates though and the younger generation seems to be more inspired by progressive ideals. The reason why there is a lot of apathy from young voters is A) it's very hard to vote in this country for a lot of people, B) they saw that their voice wasn't heard in the last election when the popular vote didn't really matter and C) the Dems and media keep pushing centrist, establishment candidates to keep the status quo.

This is true, which is why I hope that after this election Bernie will start using Our Revolution less as a continued campaigning tool and more as a mechanism for advancing the progressive agenda through support for down ballot races and candidates. The Squad can't do it alone, that's for sure.

Edit: Want to zoom in on this statement:

A) it's very hard to vote in this country for a lot of people,

Very true, and one of the things that isn't getting enough play in the discussion of this election cycle is how the census is going to impact redistricting maps. The gerrymandering of our country to keep a minority in power is one of the most critical issues facing our country and we only get a comprehensive shot at fixing it once per decade.

 

[Jorduck]

Somehow no young, inspiring candidates are running.

There aren't many in congress either and I don't think it's because of a lack of them running. The democratic establishment does not like it when young progressives try to primary the older conservative members of the party. There's been a pretty clear battle between Pelosi and the young congresswomen who were elected in 2018 too.

 

[Enaz Fox]

To the bold: what youth? This myth that they vote in large enough numbers to matter is unfounded. That sucks, but it's true. Until they bother to engage, they can't be counted on as a core demographic. The calculus makes courting them a fools errand.

To the rest, you can't just "move forward" now. We have to repair the damage. We need to restore the ACA. We need to reinstitute some of the scrapped regulation. We need to build on the House majority and win back the Senate before we can pass any meaningful legislation.

And on healthcare, while I agree with the end goal of a universal coverage system, Bernie's plan to get there is simply unworkable and dangerous to progressive success in government. There's a lesson the Bernie crowd and m4A hardliners need to learn from ACA/Obamacare.

People freaked out when the ACA scrapped some junk healthcare plans. 1.1M are estimated to have been impacted. It caused one of the largest red waves in modern political history. The Dems lost the House, their super majority in the Senate, and eventually the Senate itself. It caused a stall of economic recovery legislation, and it likely cost the Dems a seat on SCOTUS by giving the gavel to McConnell. What do you think would happen if suddenly the Dems yanked 159M off their actually good coverage? The magnitude versus ACA is just insane. What do you think the outcome would be?

Progressive ideals are admirable, but you guys have no sound path to get there right now. You gotta think about this shit. It's why I preferred Pete's plan of "Medicare for all who want it", which is essentially a public option - I'd hope Biden adopts this. Let the public option compete with private care, and if it is as great as the left hopes, it will win the battle and through market competition eliminate private plans. But suddenly stripping 150M people's coverage would be a disaster.

The same youth that hasn't gone out and voted in the last multiple elections. I said his nomination is going to further fill this void.

I'm aware you can't just "move forward" with what has happened in the last 4 years but I don't think we have to come to a complete stop to get back to that point either. Why not try and get back to something better was more my point, sorry if I didn't get that out properly.

On the healthcare front I'm not sure of the best way to get there and I by no means have a crystal ball. I know what I think the end goal should be and this candidate hasn't said anything I believe helps us get to that point.

Not to diminish your feelings about this, just want to offer a different perspective. I don't see this as his pitch. I think his pitch is "I'm going to make sure America doesn't re-elect Trump and then hand over the reins to the next generation." I think that's what all this "I'm the bridge" stuff is about -- his goal is singular, to pull us out of a crisis and that's it.

I totally recognize that there are valid arguments that someone else could walk and chew gum at the same time, but the other candidates were also all less known quantities, so there was (in Biden's view) more of a risk that they would lose to Trump, and then not only do we not get a progressive agenda, we're even worse off.

Ideally Obama would have been the bridge. The first president never to have done any military service, the first black president, the first president born after 1960...all the ingredients were there. But since that didn't work out, rebooting and trying to pass the torch (exactly what Swalwell told Biden to do in one of the very first debates) a second time isn't a bad idea. If Biden decides to skip the Team of Rivals and instead creates a Team of Next Leaders? I'd be mostly okay with that.

I appreciate both of these responses and takes. Thanks for giving me some food for thought. I'm going to go back to reading.