Political Discussion

Both my grandmother and aunt said over Thanksgiving that would would not ever want the government to take over our healthcare.

I asked them why. And there only answer is, "the government should not be involved with healthcare".

Okay, but why. Why do you think that's a bad thing?

The idea that everything should be private and the government should not be involved in anything has been very effectively sold in the United States for years.
 
The counter argument around choice is also quickly falling to the wayside. With large monopolies taking over our healthcare space, we are being "steered" (and yes, in the health insurance industry we "steer" people to providers) to certain low cost providers. We have "access" to any provider, but most providers and services are very costly and we all have high deductible health plans (HDHP), that we can't actually go to most of the doctors we have "access" to nor can we get most of the services we have "access" to. The health insurance industry has now come up with a term for those people with health insurance who are unable to use it due to cost; they are called the under insured. Thus, I have "access" to life saving cancer treatment, but as recent analysis into cancer cost found, 42% of all people that paid for cancer treatment for two years or more end up burning through all their assets (and this analysis was done prior to the adoption of HDHP and CAR-T oncology therapy). So the argument of choice is a fallacy for the majority of the people getting medical services. They are absolutely limited by what and who their insurance will cover--and this list is getting smaller and smaller.

There's a bit of a fallacy with the per capita spend thing. Yes, we do pay the most per capita in health care spend, but a broader analysis showed that the reason the Brits (in particular the Brits because they were so close to us regarding health outcomes) spend more on other social safety nets so their spending does eventually equal ours, but theirs includes things like public transportation and other social services that are just too "commie" for us Americans to stomach. But the integrity of your argument still stands in that the Brits are able to fund so many more social services per capita than Americans largely due to our for profit system.
Excellent points. Which reinforce the argument that, increasingly, the bitter divide over taking health care public in the United States revolves around the wealthy, who are the greatest political contibutors and beneficiaries.

Now, to get really controversial - there has always been a faction within the Republican party, which has now taken it over, which is white supremacist and beholden to the wealthy elite. They block broader public access to both education and health care, as they actually want to keep a significant part of the population dumb and sick. Natural selection, I suppose.

Just as with Covid restrictions, they use 'freedom' and the 'Constitution' as their foils. The broad misuse of both are largely the crux of the divide. Freedom isn't about choice, which has been misconstrued as being able to do what the fuck the person wants. And continuing to misapprehend the Constitution to what they claim is a 'literal' interpretation - no such thing exists - instead of viewing it through the lens of contemporary norms - is a major stumbling block no one seems to have the courage to address.

The insanity of Covid behaviors and attitudes magnifies this. Donald Trump stated at the outset of Covid that it was a little flu. Then he said it would be all over in a few months. Then he said that deaths would peak at about 150,000. Now, America has hit over 800,000 deaths - a staggering number - and will hit 1,000,000 by spring.

And this is still open for debate??

Here in Ontario, we have what can only be considered a right wing conservative government. The brother of the late, notorious Mayor Rob Ford, star of late night television. And we have had the longest lockdown in the world, and still have significant restrictions. No one goes anywhere without a mask - period. Not on the subway, the bus, or a plane. Offices are still remote, and will be for at least the next 6 months. A Vax passport is in effect - and it is enforced. No one gets in a restaurant or bar without one. If the establishment violates that, it isn't just a fine. They get shut down.

That's becuase 'freedom' here means freedom from the actions of others that may cause you harm, and 'freedom' also means 'for the greater good'.
 
Both my grandmother and aunt said over Thanksgiving that would would not ever want the government to take over our healthcare.

I asked them why. And there only answer is, "the government should not be involved with healthcare".

Okay, but why. Why do you think that's a bad thing?

The idea that everything should be private and the government should not be involved in anything has been very effectively sold in the United States for years.
It's that mistrust of government that has been a selling point to mask greed for so long. The straw man in the room.

Yet, when there is a disaster - a flood, a hurricane, or whatever - they instantly turn to government, not their blessed private sector.

The takeover of religion in the United States by money interests also contributes.

I was in a room many years ago where privately, Michael Bloomberg said "There are some things so big that only government can do them." - maybe not a popular position in America, but very true.
 
I recently read that the #1 reason in the US people go bankrupt is medical bills and expenses. That's staggering and sad.
I can offer a personal story about it:
A few years ago a close friend of mine was beaten nearly to death by an acquaintance. He was lucky he didn't die, but since he was never unconscious he was able to call 911 after the assailant stormed off and before he bled to death. They got the guy, and he did some time in jail, but was let out and put on probation. He was ordered to pay 180K in restitution but instead works for cash under the table and has no intention of paying the money. Meanwhile my friend is still being garnished weekly for the six figures he owes for the care given while on death's door. He's in his 50s and now and has lasting eyesight damage and other complications from the beating. Now after a hospitalization from Covid he will most definitely be in medical debt for the rest of his life.
 
I recently read that the #1 reason in the US people go bankrupt is medical bills and expenses. That's staggering and sad.
I can offer a personal story about it:
A few years ago a close friend of mine was beaten nearly to death by an acquaintance. He was lucky he didn't die, but since he was never unconscious he was able to call 911 after the assailant stormed off and before he bled to death. They got the guy, and he did some time in jail, but was let out and put on probation. He was ordered to pay 180K in restitution but instead works for cash under the table and has no intention of paying the money. Meanwhile my friend is still being garnished weekly for the six figures he owes for the care given while on death's door. He's in his 50s and now and has lasting eyesight damage and other complications from the beating. Now after a hospitalization from Covid he will most definitely be in medical debt for the rest of his life.
The new definition of 'Freedom' - you're on your own.
 
Excellent points. Which reinforce the argument that, increasingly, the bitter divide over taking health care public in the United States revolves around the wealthy, who are the greatest political contibutors and beneficiaries.

Now, to get really controversial - there has always been a faction within the Republican party, which has now taken it over, which is white supremacist and beholden to the wealthy elite. They block broader public access to both education and health care, as they actually want to keep a significant part of the population dumb and sick. Natural selection, I suppose.

Just as with Covid restrictions, they use 'freedom' and the 'Constitution' as their foils. The broad misuse of both are largely the crux of the divide. Freedom isn't about choice, which has been misconstrued as being able to do what the fuck the person wants. And continuing to misapprehend the Constitution to what they claim is a 'literal' interpretation - no such thing exists - instead of viewing it through the lens of contemporary norms - is a major stumbling block no one seems to have the courage to address.

The insanity of Covid behaviors and attitudes magnifies this. Donald Trump stated at the outset of Covid that it was a little flu. Then he said it would be all over in a few months. Then he said that deaths would peak at about 150,000. Now, America has hit over 800,000 deaths - a staggering number - and will hit 1,000,000 by spring.

And this is still open for debate??

Here in Ontario, we have what can only be considered a right wing conservative government. The brother of the late, notorious Mayor Rob Ford, star of late night television. And we have had the longest lockdown in the world, and still have significant restrictions. No one goes anywhere without a mask - period. Not on the subway, the bus, or a plane. Offices are still remote, and will be for at least the next 6 months. A Vax passport is in effect - and it is enforced. No one gets in a restaurant or bar without one. If the establishment violates that, it isn't just a fine. They get shut down.

That's becuase 'freedom' here means freedom from the actions of others that may cause you harm, and 'freedom' also means 'for the greater good'.
And if you want to have some extra fun, you can look up how much over the table campaign funding our left and right wing politicians get from pharmaceutical companies--and that's not including any dark money. The truth is that we have a ruling elite that don't want to turn over power. The best way for them to ingrain their power is to suck up all the wealth. They use both democrats and republicans, both right and left to make sure that we create a modern feudalistic system where a small portion of the population holds all the wealth while the rest of us pay rent, or mortgages, or subscription fees, or medical premiums or any other form of debt that we must take out in order to survive what feels to me to be an increasingly hostile environment.

The problem isn't just the right wing of the party. The problem is the left neoliberals that have experted our country into chaos and inequality. When Adam Smith wrote about freedom, he was writing about a very specific type of freedom--economic freedom. Freedom from being tethered to a plot of land because your family is constantly in debt to a lord. Freedom to become educated and create wealth for yourself without the fear that a king will just take it. When he wrote of freedom, he wrote of life, liberty and the pursuit of property--not happiness. Our forefathers changed the wording, but back then owning property equaled happiness, because it wasn't a given before that time. In the 1930's, when populism really took hold, phrases like "dignity in work" start popping up. The idea of full employment and prosperity for all seized the masses. We took a very hard turn away from this thinking in the 1970's but this was linked to thinking in the 1960's, when we decided to open our trade to countries that were not democratic--before this time we were trading with Asian countries but only Japan and South Korea. When we decided to buy goods from countries that did not share our democratic values and stopped asking questions about how they were able to produce goods so cheaply, I think that's when we lost our soul as a nation. When we decided cheap stuff was more important than compensating people properly, we started this cycle that accelerated inequality.
 
And if you want to have some extra fun, you can look up how much over the table campaign funding our left and right wing politicians get from pharmaceutical companies--and that's not including any dark money. The truth is that we have a ruling elite that don't want to turn over power. The best way for them to ingrain their power is to suck up all the wealth. They use both democrats and republicans, both right and left to make sure that we create a modern feudalistic system where a small portion of the population holds all the wealth while the rest of us pay rent, or mortgages, or subscription fees, or medical premiums or any other form of debt that we must take out in order to survive what feels to me to be an increasingly hostile environment.

The problem isn't just the right wing of the party. The problem is the left neoliberals that have experted our country into chaos and inequality. When Adam Smith wrote about freedom, he was writing about a very specific type of freedom--economic freedom. Freedom from being tethered to a plot of land because your family is constantly in debt to a lord. Freedom to become educated and create wealth for yourself without the fear that a king will just take it. When he wrote of freedom, he wrote of life, liberty and the pursuit of property--not happiness. Our forefathers changed the wording, but back then owning property equaled happiness, because it wasn't a given before that time. In the 1930's, when populism really took hold, phrases like "dignity in work" start popping up. The idea of full employment and prosperity for all seized the masses. We took a very hard turn away from this thinking in the 1970's but this was linked to thinking in the 1960's, when we decided to open our trade to countries that were not democratic--before this time we were trading with Asian countries but only Japan and South Korea. When we decided to buy goods from countries that did not share our democratic values and stopped asking questions about how they were able to produce goods so cheaply, I think that's when we lost our soul as a nation. When we decided cheap stuff was more important than compensating people properly, we started this cycle that accelerated inequality.
Unfortunately...I agree.

When I see flat out nutjobs like AOC and the rather phony Ilhan Omar, not only do they make progess more unreachable, they play into the hands of the opposing forces. You should think that in a fair world AOC and Omar cancel out nutjobs on the other side like Taylor-Greene and Boebert, but actually they work in the other direction by pulling people further apart.

At least I have some respect for Nancy. There is an element of alruism and service in her. I have sympathy for Kevin, though. It isn't his fault he was born without balls.

Where you are pointing towards, and so am I, is that unspoken word - communism. Unfortunately that word, and Karl Marx generally, have become synonymous with totalitarianism. That wasn't what it was supposed to be. China, much as I abhor so much of their abuses (and they are totalitarian, but then again so is Trump), are right - capitalism is an interim step.

In Star Trek - First Contact, there is a scene where a woman from 21st century Earth gets on board the Enterprise. She is in awe over the ship, and asks Picard how anyone could afford to build it. Picard, somewhat fatuously, responds that in the 23rd century, there is no money and they do not work for individual gain but for the good of mankind overall.

Most people I am sure missed the meaning. Picard was saying that the 23rd century of Star Trek is communist!
 
Wait, then what’s in the little snuff box that Trump pulls out of his breast pocket and taps absentmindedly anytime Kevin comes to see him?
It's not a snuff box, just made to look like one. It's actually a wiretap device, so Putin can hear the discussion and give him orders through an in-ear device.
 
Unfortunately...I agree.

When I see flat out nutjobs like AOC and the rather phony Ilhan Omar, not only do they make progess more unreachable, they play into the hands of the opposing forces. You should think that in a fair world AOC and Omar cancel out nutjobs on the other side like Taylor-Greene and Boebert, but actually they work in the other direction by pulling people further apart.

At least I have some respect for Nancy. There is an element of alruism and service in her. I have sympathy for Kevin, though. It isn't his fault he was born without balls.

Where you are pointing towards, and so am I, is that unspoken word - communism. Unfortunately that word, and Karl Marx generally, have become synonymous with totalitarianism. That wasn't what it was supposed to be. China, much as I abhor so much of their abuses (and they are totalitarian, but then again so is Trump), are right - capitalism is an interim step.

In Star Trek - First Contact, there is a scene where a woman from 21st century Earth gets on board the Enterprise. She is in awe over the ship, and asks Picard how anyone could afford to build it. Picard, somewhat fatuously, responds that in the 23rd century, there is no money and they do not work for individual gain but for the good of mankind overall.

Most people I am sure missed the meaning. Picard was saying that the 23rd century of Star Trek is communist!
I've been thinking about this a lot.

So first, there is a paper on inequality that shows how free markets tend towards oligarchy. It's a tidy little equation and they propose that the only way for free markets to remain free is to have some sort of redistribution coefficient. This redistribution coefficient in our current system is taxes--which fall apart for the uber wealthy due to our current brand of financialized capitalism. Second, humans only ever made advances in science, art, literature, and engineering when they cooperate. Our species two best attributes are our brains and our ability to cooperate. I really need to read more Lenin because I think we are on the same line of thinking when it comes to economies based on cooperation. So how do we impose a system that is based on sharing and redistribution in order to keep people economically free?
 
I've been thinking about this a lot.

So first, there is a paper on inequality that shows how free markets tend towards oligarchy. It's a tidy little equation and they propose that the only way for free markets to remain free is to have some sort of redistribution coefficient. This redistribution coefficient in our current system is taxes--which fall apart for the uber wealthy due to our current brand of financialized capitalism. Second, humans only ever made advances in science, art, literature, and engineering when they cooperate. Our species two best attributes are our brains and our ability to cooperate. I really need to read more Lenin because I think we are on the same line of thinking when it comes to economies based on cooperation. So how do we impose a system that is based on sharing and redistribution in order to keep people economically free?

With Leninist thought I always struggled with the notion of the revolutionary vanguard. The idea troubles me. That said Russia in the late 19th and early 20th century was still an incredibly backward agrarian economy that was only a few decades past feudalism and serfdom and so perhaps it wasn’t the ideal candidate for revolution in line with strict Marxist teachings and that became more of a necessity. The difficult questions regarding the scope and longevity of the ensuing dictatorship of the proletariat were never really addressed in a Russian context.
 
Sighs, most moderate and liberal news sources are now saying the Democrats really need to cave into Joe Manchin's demands or nothing is going to get done.
 
Joe Manchin.

He's confirmed he's a solid no on the Build Back a Better America bill. Negotiations are done, there isn't anything the democrats can do now to negotiate a yes vote.

This is after the bill has been cut down to be less than 2 trillion.

He also had comments over the last couple of days that he will not support any legislation which extends the child tax credit, because people are using it to buy drugs.

Like wtf Joe.
 
Joe Manchin.

He's confirmed he's a solid no on the Build Back a Better America bill. Negotiations are done, there isn't anything the democrats can do now to negotiate a yes vote.

This is after the bill has been cut down to be less than 2 trillion.

He also had comments over the last couple of days that he will not support any legislation which extends the child tax credit, because people are using it to buy drugs.

Like wtf Joe.


Because the overwhelming majority of parents have the time to buy buy and do drugs. 😂
 
Joe Manchin says he is a no because it's in the best interest of his constituents.

Yet West Virginia supports the Build Back a Better America bill by 42 points in the latest poll. It is immensely popular, even with republicans.

He said in the past that the bill was to expensive and would hurt the economy. And that his number was 1.7 trillion. The house got him his number of 1.7 trillion, and now that we have the number he was asking for he's a "no".

He says the Democrats did not meet his demands. That they did not take things out of the bill, only shortened the length of time programs ran for. And he said quote. "Let's face it and be honest with ourselves, we all know congress will renew these programs if we allow them to continue. They won't be temporary, they will be permanent."

However, this is totally not true. Many things were indeed cut from the bill. Things like paid family leave just to name one thing. Childcare for another...

And no, temporary things, such as the child tax credit being extended by 1 year does not mean they are likely to be extended forever. Congress has already let it laps what are the odds they would renew it again next year? Slim to none, especially in the GOP regains power.

He's a solid no because it benefits his enterprises where he stands to make solid profits off of how things work now. Not to mention lobbyist, especially health care lobbyists, would not like to see caps on drug or healthcare costs.

Also his whole comment about the bill hurting the economy. That's a load of crap. Not passing the bill will hurt our GDP.
 
Joe Manchin says he is a no because it's in the best interest of his constituents.

Yet West Virginia supports the Build Back a Better America bill by 42 points in the latest poll. It is immensely popular, even with republicans.

He said in the past that the bill was to expensive and would hurt the economy. And that his number was 1.7 trillion. The house got him his number of 1.7 trillion, and now that we have the number he was asking for he's a "no".

He says the Democrats did not meet his demands. That they did not take things out of the bill, only shortened the length of time programs ran for. And he said quote. "Let's face it and be honest with ourselves, we all know congress will renew these programs if we allow them to continue. They won't be temporary, they will be permanent."

However, this is totally not true. Many things were indeed cut from the bill. Things like paid family leave just to name one thing. Childcare for another...

And no, temporary things, such as the child tax credit being extended by 1 year does not mean they are likely to be extended forever. Congress has already let it laps what are the odds they would renew it again next year? Slim to none, especially in the GOP regains power.

He's a solid no because it benefits his enterprises where he stands to make solid profits off of how things work now. Not to mention lobbyist, especially health care lobbyists, would not like to see caps on drug or healthcare costs.

Also his whole comment about the bill hurting the economy. That's a load of crap. Not passing the bill will hurt our GDP.
Also, if you want to do an analysis of GDP growth with vs without the BBB, you find that with the BBB, analysts are predicting about a half percentage point of GDP will be lost next year if we don't pass BBB. So, not passing BBB is going to negatively effect our GDP and will have no real impact on inflation--as in inflation is going to happen next year whether we like it or not, not passing BBB will not keep inflation down. The main inflation driver is pandemic shortages--so cash payments to families might not fix this problem, but it's not going to make inflation much worse. Asset inflation we are seeing in housing markets is due largely to lots of cheap credit being available for wealthy people. Passing or not passing BBB won't change this. All of the main economic drivers that Manchin is complaining about are barely touched by the BBB.
 
Just to be clear, I used the tax credits to put my kids in summer school so we could both continue working and to help put my kids in private school since the public school system is still in post-covid shambles.
 
Manchin is a no because he has no plans to run again and he makes for a convenient scapegoat for stonewalling legislation that the corporations that prop up the Democratic party don't want passed. Simple as that. It's literally Liebermann all over again.
 
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