Political Discussion

KenKaniff said:
I came here for a discussion. I didn't come here to dump on Bernie. I came here to discuss something that I struggled to understand and was seeing if I could gain clarity. I see narratives from all over (not talking about N&G) about Bernie getting screwed by the establishment, the DNC, him getting "robbed" and all sorts of words and situations where Bernie has been treated this election cycle unfairly. I'm questioning it because I don't understand what the unfairness is towards Bernie.
Click to expand...


People are emotional because they are frustrated. They had hope it's tough to have that dashed. It's also tough to self assess. Everybody sees all the problems everyone else causes and they don't see the ones they cause. This is humanity.
 
KenKaniff said:
Right, so Biden and Sanders (and Pete and Amy in a past tense) run under the DNC and receive that support. In that sense, equal playing field.
Click to expand...


It's hard to say that they received equal support, but Berine has been doing it by himself for most of his lifetime. He's taken a number of moral stands and will admit when he does something wrong.
 
Dtknuckles said:
It's hard to say that they received equal support, but Berine has been doing it by himself for most of his lifetime. He's taken a number of moral stands and will admit when he does something wrong.
Click to expand...
Sanders isn’t a Democrat which is a commendable choice, but I would not expect the Democratic Party to favor a non-party member over fellow Democrats.
 
KenKaniff said:
This is my thing, I'm coming here in good faith and I know discussing politics on the internet is hard. I've been apart of this community on N&G, and before on VMP, and I enjoy and value this platform. I didn't come here to stink the place up. If I was acting in bad faith or looking to stink a place up, I would go elsewhere on the internet and not a place I call home.

I came here for a discussion. I didn't come here to dump on Bernie. I came here to discuss something that I struggled to understand and was seeing if I could gain clarity. I see narratives from all over (not talking about N&G) about Bernie getting screwed by the establishment, the DNC, him getting "robbed" and all sorts of words and situations where Bernie has been treated this election cycle unfairly. I'm questioning it because I don't understand what the unfairness is towards Bernie.

Is this thread for super high information voters only or also people looking to learn and ask questions about things they don't understand?
Click to expand...

I can tell you're asking in good faith. Please continue to ask questions. I learn from this thread too.

To everyone: It does get frustrating and can get contentious in here. But I think we all want the country to be better. So whatever we need to do to accomplish that, let's hash it out but remember that we are all in this together.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
Sanders isn’t a Democrat which is a commendable choice, but I would not expect the Democratic Party to favor a non-party member over fellow Democrats.
Click to expand...

Right, but like the Russia stuff (Trump and Obama) and Ukraine stuff (Biden and Trump) it's all done with a wink and a nod. Do we have proof? No one is dumb enough to leave that stuff around.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Can you expand on this? What did the DNC do specifically? Not disputing, just curious what the perception is. Until Monday, it looked to me like the DNC didn't really do much at all for Biden. He wasn't fundraising, he had no ground game in a lot of Super Tuesday states, Steyer and Bloomberg were both dropping serious money in ways that were seen as potentially eating into Biden's voting bloc, and Buttigieg and (to a somewhat lesser extent) Klobuchar seemed like plausible alternatives for the centrist lane. Biden didn't really seem all that viable, and his SC firewall strategy appeared pretty risky right up until Clyburn's endorsement and the surprise payoff.

So, what did the DNC do that gave him an advantage? Is it the timing of the Buttigieg/Klobuchar/Beto endorsements that are somehow seen as unfair coordination by the Bernie set? (For my part, that just seems like normal political party functioning.) Is there something else?

Edit: It took me too long to type this out and I see it's being covered already. I'm not trying to bait you, just wondering if I'm not seeing the reasoning behind the position.
Click to expand...

The perception is that the DNC made some phone calls and pressured Pete and Amy our. Maybe some deals were struck. Then a series of endorsements that made a very clear and large impact. There is also the feeling that Warren stayed in it to railroad Bernie (after already kneecapping him with the “women can’t win” comment. She is too smart to have not seen last nights results coming.

The first part (Amy / Pete) is definitely just normal politics— but it’s also the most blatant pushback against a candidate I can recall as a 32 year old.

But the other side of this is millennials watching politicians who supposedly have our back and sell themselves as progressive (Warren / Beto) throw the progressive movement downriver in an effort to advance their careers. And not to Pete or somebody palatable, no, to the guy who is largerly responsible for a lot of the problems we are trying to solve.

And the fact that happened just reinforces the cynicism that has run rampant among people my age ever since Obama bailed out the banks.

www.google.com

Operation Bernie Block Is in Full Effect

Confused about the flurry of news in the presidential race? Here's what it all means
www.google.com www.google.com
 
Last edited:
DownIsTheNewUp said:
The perception is that the DNC made some phone calls and pressured Pete and Amy our. Maybe some deals were struck. Then a series of endorsements that made a very clear and large impact. There is also the feeling that Warren stayed in it to railroad Bernie (after already kneecapping him with the “women can’t win” comment. She is too smart to have not seen last nights results coming.

The first part (Amy / Pete) is definitely just normal politics— but it’s also the most blatant pushback against a candidate I can recall as a 32 year old.

But the other side of this is millennials watching politicians who supposedly have our back and sell themselves as progressive (Warren / Beto) throw the progressive movement downriver in an effort to advance their careers. And not to Pete or somebody palatable, no, to the guy who is largerly responsible for a lot of the problems we are trying to solve.

And the fact that happened just reinforces the cynicism that has run rampant among people my age ever since Obama bailed out the banks.

www.google.com

Operation Bernie Block Is in Full Effect

Confused about the flurry of news in the presidential race? Here's what it all means
www.google.com www.google.com
Click to expand...

It's interesting to me that because Amy & Pete got out, as you say, the "perception is the DNC made some phone calls and pressured Pete and Amy out". Not that Pete and Amy saw they didnt have a real path and got out on their own.

But then you say Elizabeth Warren should of seen last nights results coming and got out. So it seems to me if you see certain results coming and get out it's kind of fishy, but if you compete and don't get out, well you should of seen the results coming and got out.

I don't like the negative feeling that Elizabeth Warren should of previously got out - she has every right to compete and if she honestly believed or believes she could win, then so be it. She doesn't owe Bernie. It's a job competition, let the people vote.
 
It
KenKaniff said:
It's interesting to me that because Amy & Pete got out, as you say, the "perception is the DNC made some phone calls and pressured Pete and Amy out". Not that Pete and Amy saw they didnt have a real path and got out on their own.

But then you say Elizabeth Warren should of seen last nights results coming and got out. So it seems to me if you see certain results coming and get out it's kind of fishy, but if you compete and don't get out, well you should of seen the results coming and got out.

I don't like the negative feeling that Elizabeth Warren should of previously got out - she has every right to compete and if she honestly believed or believes she could win, then so be it. She doesn't owe Bernie. It's a job competition, let the people vote.
Click to expand...

By seen coming I mean that she should have seen that her staying in the race would split the progressive vote and hand Biden victories in places a single progressive would have taken him out (post Amy / Pete).

And it’s not about owing anything to Bernie. It’s about pushing the progressive movement forward as opposed to handing the nomination to a senile jackass who made decision after decision that has helped fill the pockets of corporations at the expense of the middle class and working classes as well as the health of this planet.

I would have been saying the same thing about Bernie if he had failed to pick up a delegate post-Iowa while Warren had been racking up momentum. Once the centrist dropped out, it was time for the progressives to unify. Particularly because Biden was the one who was clearly going to be left standing.

Also, I’m sorry for the snark earlier. Clearly the fact that somebody who recently said “he has no empathy for millennials”, “we can find compromise (on climate change)” and “nothing will change [to a room full of bankers]” has me on edge.
 
Last edited:
dhodo said:
I've never heard a stutter described as making you frequently say the wrong thing. That seems to be what the video is pointing out.
Click to expand...

The Problem with that video is how it just throws everything into one pot. Biden calling Chris Wallace, Chuck? Gaffe. Biden stumbling over a word, having to abandon the sentence and move on to the next thought? Stutter.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
There is also the feeling that Warren stayed in it to railroad Bernie (after already kneecapping him with the “women can’t win” comment. She is too smart to have not seen last nights results coming.
Click to expand...

Just anchoring to this comment.

If the "women can't win" comment really "kneecapped" the Sanders enthusiasm that badly then it was too tenuous to begin with.
Warren has no obligation to make things easier for Sanders or the progressive movement as a whole.

It's horrible to see people stating that Bernie under-performing is everyone else's fault but his own campaign. It's frustrating and it demonstrates a complete lack of perspective. You're in a competition and if you're trying to really upend the fundamentals of how this country works then you actually need to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and acknowledge your own weakness because your competition is going to expose you if you don't. I'm pretty sure that's written in the art of war somewhere.

Re bank bailout:
Everyone got screwed by the recession Not just millenials, not just people under 45, everybody. Regular hard working people. People that worked their whole lives to retire simply. People that worked through graduate degrees who couldn't get jobs. People that had menial jobs and then lost them and had to take other lower paying menial jobs. The 99%.

American society is fully in bed with capitalism. We are propped up by it. We suckle at its teat. We define ourselves by it. We pledge our allegiance to it, and some people get to manipulate it for their own personal benefit. They fucked people over. Lots of people, and without the bailout everyone would've been fucked worse. Making hindsight arguments about well we should've just let it burn more and let the great depression 2.0 play itself out because it would be more moral to do so is foolish imo. It's just as foolish to suggest that people who are center-left candidates in Europe (sanders and warren) are suddenly going to upend all of that teat sucking in a term or two.

The Obama admin. was saddled with that situation and what was the first African American president supposed to do? "Hey! white majority! (who are already only tenuously voting for me) guess what? I'm going to let this get worse for you so that it can maybe get better later for your great grandchildren. And the weakest amongst us (who you don't give a shit about but say you do) will actually be on equal footing with you when it's all said and done. Thanks. Now about that affordable care act." Sorry that just doesn't play in the court of reality.

The bailout sucked. The recession sucked. It was wrong and it was still necessary so that more regular people didn't get hurt worse by something that wasn't their fault. I don't see how it's proving the point or need for social principles in America to keep blaming Obama for a situation that his admin did not create and had no control over.
 
Widget said:
The Problem with that video is how it just throws everything into one pot. Biden calling Chris Wallace, Chuck? Gaffe. Biden stumbling over a word, having to abandon the sentence and move on to the next thought? Stutter.
Click to expand...
I mean, everyone makes gaffes, so I don't agree with the tweet that it has anything to do with why Trump will win. I just didn't notice it focusing on stutter. You could argue they are all gaffes. Biden does seem to keep kind of losing his train of thought or saying confusing statements, I'm not sure if blaming his stutter really helps him come across better, even if it is always the cause.

Unfortunately Trump will probably be doing his best 3rd grade bully impression making fun of Biden's stutter himself, and his base won't care, which is really fucking sad. Still don't think that has anything to do with whether or not he should run though.
 
Is California the only state that has not been called yet from Super Tuesday? What's the hold up? Only 57% has reported so far.

While it appears Bernie will win California I have a feeling the Biden will be a close second splitting the delegates. Biden will probably get 2/3 the delegates that Bernie gets. It's not going to give Bernie what he needs to catch up.
 
RenegadeMonster said:
Is California the only state that has not been called yet from Super Tuesday? What's the hold up? Only 57% has reported so far.

While it appears Bernie will win California I have a feeling the Biden will be a close second splitting the delegates. Biden will probably get 2/3 the delegates that Bernie gets. It's not going to give Bernie what he needs to catch up.
Click to expand...


CA is typically late. They are counting mail in ballots.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top