Equipment Recommendations - The Home For New System and Upgrade Advice

[Mather]

Pictures 2 and 3 look a tad high on the right. The arm tube needs to spin a wee bit clockwise if viewed from the front.

Have you checked with a level?

Yeah I agree it looks like that but my level app is saying dead on 0.0/0.0. l

Only thing it says is that the tone could come up a touch. But eyeballing the chart from the side it appears the opposite, that it could come down a touch...
It appears to me the stylus has been set by ortofon taking into account the cantilever sag when it hits the vinyl. When off the vinyl the stylus appears SLIGHTLY outturned, but that corrects when the needle hits the groove. I'll check the level again...

 

[Mather]

Pictures 2 and 3 look a tad high on the right. The arm tube needs to spin a wee bit clockwise if viewed from the front.

Have you checked with a level?

Okay so with the app is showing dead on, but the app is showing EVERYTHING remotely flat in my house as dead on, so the app sucks. My little crappy bubble level is showing this:
which would seem to indicate a VERY slight clockwise turn and the tonearm needs to come up slightly HOWEVER these measurements were all done with the tonearm raised and locked. Correct me if I'm wrong but won't all of these measurements be totally inaccurate unless the tonearm is lowered and the stylus is sitting in the groove of a record? Because right now the tonearm is obviously raised and throwing off the level.

 

[HiFi Guy]

Okay so with the app is showing dead on, but the app is showing EVERYTHING remotely flat in my house as dead on, so the app sucks. My little crappy bubble level is showing this:
View attachment 9123which would seem to indicate a VERY slight clockwise turn and the tonearm needs to come up slightly HOWEVER these measurements were all done with the tonearm raised and locked. Correct me if I'm wrong but won't all of these measurements be totally inaccurate unless the tonearm is lowered and the stylus is sitting in the groove of a record? Because right now the tonearm is obviously raised and throwing off the level.

The azimuth won't change whether the arm is in the arm rest or not. Even if you eyeball it with the CD and make that very slight adjustment, it'll be closer than you are now.

 

[Mather]

The azimuth won't change whether the arm is in the arm rest or not. Even if you eyeball it with the CD and make that very slight adjustment, it'll be closer than you are now.

Alright I'll give it a shot

 

[HiFi Guy]

Alright I'll give it a shot

Remember that when you tighten the arm tube- snug it. Do not crank it down.

 

[Mather]

The azimuth won't change whether the arm is in the arm rest or not. Even if you eyeball it with the CD and make that very slight adjustment, it'll be closer than you are now.

Well I adjusted it, a tiny tiny bit. The cart looks to be closer in alignment but the way the cantilever turns outward slightly when playing still kinda looks to me as if the stylus is slightly tilted towards the outside of the record.

But if anything it appeared slightly tilted outward before I adjusted it too. But that could just be parralax...

Doesn't sound much different to me. The same right channel fuzz on some albums are still there, I'm inclined to think it's just the pressings. I thought my treble might have been more tinny but that might have just been me thinking too hard... I feel like treble changes would be more likely to occur with tonearm raising or lowering rather than turning side to side?

 

[HiFi Guy]

Well I adjusted it, a tiny tiny bit. The cart looks to be closer in alignment but the way the cantilever turns outward slightly when playing still kinda looks to me as if the stylus is slightly tilted towards the outside of the record.
View attachment 9173
But if anything it appeared slightly tilted outward before I adjusted it too. But that could just be parralax...

Doesn't sound much different to me. The same right channel fuzz on some albums are still there, I'm inclined to think it's just the pressings. I thought my treble might have been more tinny but that might have just been me thinking too hard... I feel like treble changes would be more likely to occur with tonearm raising or lowering rather than turning side to side?

That looks right.

Next step- un hang your anti skate weight and play a problem pressing. If the problem is solved, we know you had too much anti skate. If so, I'd set it for the lowest anti skate you can- you need some, but many manufacturers specify an excessive amount.

 

[Mather]

That looks right.

Next step- un hang your anti skate weight and play a problem pressing. If the problem is solved, we know you had too much anti skate. If so, I'd set it for the lowest anti skate you can- you need some, but many manufacturers specify an excessive amount.

Okay cool, I'll give that a shot when I get home from work. Thanks again.

 

[Mather]

That looks right.

Next step- un hang your anti skate weight and play a problem pressing. If the problem is solved, we know you had too much anti skate. If so, I'd set it for the lowest anti skate you can- you need some, but many manufacturers specify an excessive amount.

Is it normal that when the needle drops that the cart doesn't settle straight down but rather slightly towards the outside edge of the record with the cantilever bent slightly inwards? It's more pronounced when dropped on a stationary record, when the record is spinning it seems to tilt less. My Ort Bronze does the same thing. I would say the azimuth is off but if that was the case I'd have to be spinning it counterclockwise which definitely isn't right. Platter is level where the needle drops but perhaps it needs to be raised on the right hand side to counter?

EDIT - The more I look at comparable pics online the more it appears this is just the way the 2M cantilever behaves. I guess as long as the stylus is vertical in the groove as it appears to be from my pics that everything is fine. Not to mention I would imagine I'd be hearing groove distortion if it was an issue.

 

[HiFi Guy]

Is it normal that when the needle drops that the cart doesn't settle straight down but rather slightly towards the outside edge of the record with the cantilever bent slightly inwards? It's more pronounced when dropped on a stationary record, when the record is spinning it seems to tilt less. My Ort Bronze does the same thing. I would say the azimuth is off but if that was the case I'd have to be spinning it counterclockwise which definitely isn't right. Platter is level where the needle drops but perhaps it needs to be raised on the right hand side to counter?

EDIT - The more I look at comparable pics online the more it appears this is just the way the 2M cantilever behaves. I guess as long as the stylus is vertical in the groove as it appears to be from my pics that everything is fine. Not to mention I would imagine I'd be hearing groove distortion if it was an issue.

QC isn't the best that I've seen on on the 2m series- you can't judge anything by the way the cantilever points. I wanted you to adjust your azimuth because it's pretty much always off. Try the anti skate test I've proposed to eliminate your problem.

 

[Mather]

QC isn't the best that I've seen on on the 2m series- you can't judge anything by the way the cantilever points. I wanted you to adjust your azimuth because it's pretty much always off. Try the anti skate test I've proposed to eliminate your problem.

If you had a choice of cart to go with my system, anything $1000 USD and under. What would you pick?

 

[HiFi Guy]

If you had a choice of cart to go with my system, anything $1000 USD and under. What would you pick?

What's your system (sorry- way too many systems in my head to remember yours) and what kind of sound do you want?

As an example of sound- some are detail freaks- a chair squeaked- or a gnat farted and they want to know.

Others (like me) don't care anymore about that- been there. All that matters is music.

 

[Mather]

What's your system (sorry- way too many systems in my head to remember yours) and what kind of sound do you want?

As an example of sound- some are detail freaks- a chair squeaked- or a gnat farted and they want to know.

Others (like me) don't care anymore about that- been there. All that matters is music.

Sorry, my system is in my signature. Should be at the bottom of the message. I like detail which is why I have the 2M Black. But it's definitely very unforgiving to bad pressings...

Ortofon 2M Black | Pro-Ject 2Xperience SB | Rega Aria | Arcam 550 | Revel F35 Speakers | Revel B10 Sub
BIS Vivat Speaker Cables & RCA Interconnects
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[Ed Selley]

I've just come off the back of testing six carts £300-525. I can't tell you which cart won but I can, completely at random, post a pic.

 

[HiFi Guy]

If you had a choice of cart to go with my system, anything $1000 USD and under. What would you pick?

Me? I'd buy a Grado Reference Master. A few things to watch- will your table hum with a Grado? Your's won't. You need to make sure your arm can handle a cartridge that weighs 10 grams. The stylus isn't user replaceable. When it's worn you'll get a new cartridge for 40% off of list and then you return the worn cartridge. No down time.

Be aware that Grados sound different from other cartridges. I love the Grado sound. You may not.

Others to consider are the A/T that @Ed Selley pictured above- a moving coil with a non user replaceable stylus. I've had the previous generation of that cartridge and liked it a lot.

Another option (this time with a replaceable stylus) would be the Nagaoka MP-500. Both are far less than $1000.

Price equivalent to these in the Grado line would be the Reference Sonata.

I'd buy any of these over an Ortofon 2m series cartridge.

Edited: I'd prefer the Grado Statement series over the Reference series but the Rega Aria isn't compatible with the Statement series.

 

[Ed Selley]

Edited: I'd prefer the Grado Statement series over the Reference series but the Rega Aria isn't compatible with the Statement series.

Of course, one cart that is very compatible with the Aria is Rega's own Ania which is a very, very good cartridge indeed. The only caveat is that I (and indeed anybody else I know) have never tried attaching one to a Pro-Ject arm. It's not that Rega carts don't play nice with other arms- I've attached them to SME and Technics ones without incident- but I simply don't know for sure if it'll work for you.

 

[HiFi Guy]

@Mather Given that you like detail- I'd probably not recommend a Grado for you. They do detail but presentation is 180 degrees from your Ortofon. I'm not sure you'll like it.

Another cartridge that I failed to mention is the Audio Technica ART9. It's an excellent cartridge but you'll likely get 90 percent of the performance at half the money going with the OC9XEN. I think part of the reason you are having issues is due to the Shibata stylus on your Ortofon- which no cartridge that has been recommended has.

Since @Ed Selley has heard both A/T models and likely a Grado woody, maybe he can offer advice.

 

[Ed Selley]

These new OC-9 models are a bit of a revelation for me and a few others at the moment. They're like the VM-95s in that they differ principally in stylii (although coils and cantilevers also change) and the EXN (elliptical nude) and XML (microlinear) seem to be the value propositions. For me, the biggest single step forward is that they have threaded inserts. Mounting them is a piece of cake and it genuinely improves my mood toward them. In the UK at least, the EXN is an absolute gold plated bargain at £300 (seems to be $350 in the US so good value there too). It honestly gave more of the ART7 than I was expecting at rather less than half the money.

I have also recently tested a Grado Reference 2 (5mv output) and I've found it both lovely and infuriating in equal measure. When it's good, it's seriously good... but it's not good all the time. In the available test equipment, for every piece of music that blew me away, there was something else where it just wasn't grooving. I sense that for people who major on tonal richness, it's going to score higher than for flat earthers like me who need the first femtosecond of the beat to be there and with the Grado it isn't always. Not for the first time, home audio doesn't generally have a 'universally right' and this is a reminder of that.

 

[Mather]

@Mather Given that you like detail- I'd probably not recommend a Grado for you. They do detail but presentation is 180 degrees from your Ortofon. I'm not sure you'll like it.

Another cartridge that I failed to mention is the Audio Technica ART9. It's an excellent cartridge but you'll likely get 90 percent of the performance at half the money going with the OC9XEN. I think part of the reason you are having issues is due to the Shibata stylus on your Ortofon- which no cartridge that has been recommended has.

Since @Ed Selley has heard both A/T models and likely a Grado woody, maybe he can offer advice.

I'll check these out. I mean to be clear, I LOVE the sound out of my system, and good pressings play clean and sound incredible. But I definitely find that I'm coming across more dodgy pressings than I used to. But as of now when I've taken these problem pressings elsewhere and played on other systems the same problems arise. So I think it's partly that a lot of pressings these days just straight up suck in terms of being free from issues, and partly that my Black doesn't go easy on them.

After checking the anti skate there was no difference in sound. So I think it's just bad discs. But I do find the the bass and the stage have bumped up a tiny bit with the re calibration of the azimuth and it appears that the cantilever is dropping straight into the groove now. So I think it's dialed in pretty well, thanks for the help!

 

[Sturgus]

I'll check these out. I mean to be clear, I LOVE the sound out of my system, and good pressings play clean and sound incredible. But I definitely find that I'm coming across more dodgy pressings than I used to. But as of now when I've taken these problem pressings elsewhere and played on other systems the same problems arise. So I think it's partly that a lot of pressings these days just straight up suck in terms of being free from issues, and partly that my Black doesn't go easy on them.

After checking the anti skate there was no difference in sound. So I think it's just bad discs. But I do find the the bass and the stage have bumped up a tiny bit with the re calibration of the azimuth and it appears that the cantilever is dropping straight into the groove now. So I think it's dialed in pretty well, thanks for the help!

Can I make a suggestion. Go to Vinyl Engine and download Conrad Hoffman's arc protractor and make sure it's to scale. When you're sure it's right, print it on some card stock paper and laminate it. Then buy an inexpensive cartridge ( AT-95, Shure M-97x or similar ) some tools for mounting cartridges ( small precision screwdriver, very small led light, 20x jeweler's loop or a lienen tester's magnifier, a digital scale ). These should get you going. Now practice mounting the cheap cartridge till it gets easy. You can then decide if you want to spend the money on a more expensive cartridge. You could also get a better stylus for the AT or the Shure. You have a first class cartridge already you just have to get comfortable with set-up. That's where the cheap cartridge comes in. If you mess it up you haven't taken a big hit. The more you do it the better you get at doing it.