HuddieLedbetter
Well-Known Member
In the price range of the G, what else would you buy? +And is it even worth it....
Equipment Recommendations - The Home For New System and Upgrade Advice
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displayname
Well-Known Member
@HiFi Guy called it out saying every part is better built. If you see the GR and G side by side in person, you don't even need to touch it to guess which one cost more. But if you closed your eyes and just handled the tables you could also guess which one was more premium.
If you're asking yourself this question - it might not be worth it for you. Remember, we are truly talking about high end luxury goods at this point. No one asks if a Rolex is "worth it" - they know if it's worth it to them. And that's before we even get into what the rest of the system looks like.
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BattleFlag
Well-Known Member
Makes sense to me. I’ve always enjoyed the look of Tech 12’s, and wondered about their newer models.
The 1200 G (With no cartridge) looks like it runs about $2000 CDN, which is the same as a Studiodeck with a Mastertracker mounted. So I think the Studiodeck still wins in that option for me.
The 1200 MK7 runs $1200 CDN with no cart, but it makes sense that it’s not built as well. And I can imagine going cheaper with a direct drive is not ideal. The matte black does look great, and I could go with a more expensive cart and still come under the Studiodeck price, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the way to go.
The 1200 G (With no cartridge) looks like it runs about $2000 CDN, which is the same as a Studiodeck with a Mastertracker mounted. So I think the Studiodeck still wins in that option for me.
The 1200 MK7 runs $1200 CDN with no cart, but it makes sense that it’s not built as well. And I can imagine going cheaper with a direct drive is not ideal. The matte black does look great, and I could go with a more expensive cart and still come under the Studiodeck price, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the way to go.
HuddieLedbetter
Well-Known Member
Thanks fo the note and the comments on the build for the GR and G. I probably phrased my question poorly so for clarification, my ask was about other models/brands in this price range -- and then if the step up is significant and you go to the next level. Part of the challenge I'm trying to solve for is what area to invest in where the gains in each step yield the most significant results and where it tips over into more negligible gains.
For example: I run Devore Fidelity O/96 speakers because I thought that that step difference in sound was worth it. For turntables, the tiering is wonky for me -- there seems to be very high value gains in the jump from $3-500 to $2-4K; then a bit of a dearth of choices at $4-6K (Rega which I partially struggle at the price level with the lack of adjustability, but that my just be lack of experience on my end -- VPI which the aesthetics I don't care for...) and then a massive jump to tables I love (e.g. Palmer 2.5i) but I don't feel comfortable spending that much money on at this point. Possibly the in-between steps on the Blackbird, etc. but I don't really know.
I'm not sure that if I align to the Rolex example (though I understand the intent and goodwill in the statement and please know that this is only in the interest of clarification) in that the degree of function and sensitivity in a turntable has a significant relationship to the quality of output. To take the analogy further than it probably deserves: if I remember correctly, Rolex's for years were known for keeping inconsistent time (outside of the normal variances for all mechanical watches) -- you bought them for the status of the piece, the build, heritage, associations -- and that has something do with the resurgence of the brand today. You buy a classic submariner because that is a very particularly type of a piece of art you want to wear (and possibly is a message you want to send) but not necessarily because it is going to keep better time.
I'm asking the question to strike a middle ground: at what price point (range) can one purchase a table that provides a close approximation of top-tier performance and where is the tipping point where that value rolls over into smaller differences, aesthetics, fetishization of the art of a turntable, etc.? Is $4K the point where the gains above that become more highly specialized; $2K as the Mofi tables seem to bring a lot of joy? -- $6-10K and holy cow that's the difference between a jetta and a 335?....because $20K (Palmer, for me) seems like buying the classic Rolex, but I don't really know and so thought I should ask
@HiFi Guy had posted something a while back around audio being something that one should strike a balance between cost, joy, etc and so i thought he might have some thoughts.
Thanks fo the note and the comments on the build for the GR and G. I probably phrased my question poorly so for clarification, my ask was about other models/brands in this price range -- and then if the step up is significant and you go to the next level. Part of the challenge I'm trying to solve for is what area to invest in where the gains in each step yield the most significant results and where it tips over into more negligible gains.
For example: I run Devore Fidelity O/96 speakers because I thought that that step difference in sound was worth it. For turntables, the tiering is wonky for me -- there seems to be very high value gains in the jump from $3-500 to $2-4K; then a bit of a dearth of choices at $4-6K (Rega which I partially struggle at the price level with the lack of adjustability, but that my just be lack of experience on my end -- VPI which the aesthetics I don't care for...) and then a massive jump to tables I love (e.g. Palmer 2.5i) but I don't feel comfortable spending that much money on at this point. Possibly the in-between steps on the Blackbird, etc. but I don't really know.
I'm not sure that if I align to the Rolex example (though I understand the intent and goodwill in the statement and please know that this is only in the interest of clarification) in that the degree of function and sensitivity in a turntable has a significant relationship to the quality of output. To take the analogy further than it probably deserves: if I remember correctly, Rolex's for years were known for keeping inconsistent time (outside of the normal variances for all mechanical watches) -- you bought them for the status of the piece, the build, heritage, associations -- and that has something do with the resurgence of the brand today. You buy a classic submariner because that is a very particularly type of a piece of art you want to wear (and possibly is a message you want to send) but not necessarily because it is going to keep better time.
I'm asking the question to strike a middle ground: at what price point (range) can one purchase a table that provides a close approximation of top-tier performance and where is the tipping point where that value rolls over into smaller differences, aesthetics, fetishization of the art of a turntable, etc.? Is $4K the point where the gains above that become more highly specialized; $2K as the Mofi tables seem to bring a lot of joy? -- $6-10K and holy cow that's the difference between a jetta and a 335?....because $20K (Palmer, for me) seems like buying the classic Rolex, but I don't really know and so thought I should ask
@HiFi Guy had posted something a while back around audio being something that one should strike a balance between cost, joy, etc and so i thought he might have some thoughts.
“Worth it” is a personal thing. My previous Fiat 500 Abarth stickered at $21k. My current Alfa Romeo Romeo Giulia Ti Q4 had a window sticker of $48k. Is it worth it? On paper, probably not. Both get me where I need to go. To drive them? No contest. I happily drove the Abarth for 114k miles. Sometimes, I miss it. It was a hoot. Do I want it back? No.
I’m still really happy with my Ultradeck. I do have to say however that the new Technics SL-1210 GAE makes me itchy- I’d love to have one, but $4k right now is out of the question, because I’ve just purchased the Sutherland Duo. I doubt I’d do it anyway.
The Ultradeck or the GR could easily be “forever” tables for most people. The G really should be for anyone. Sure, there are “better” but I think beyond the G it really comes down to other personal reasons for wanting those. I certainly wouldn’t go beyond $4k, and the G is what I’d buy at that price point. I really see no competition.
Rega? I’ve owned two. Never again. A great arm does not a make a great. turntable. And making a plinth out of a Nerf football just seems wrong to me. Again, personal opinion/bias.
I see great value with all three though, whether it be the Ultradeck, the GR or the G. And I think the three shine above their competition. It comes down to what’s important to the buyer.
The thing that makes me nervous with both the GR and the G is the criticism of the tonearm and the onboard power supply that I’ve seen. Less so on the tonearm with the both editions of the GAE and the magnesium tonearm that seems only to be on that version. The thing that makes me interested again is the companies like timestep in the UK that mod them with outboard power supplies and new tonearms, amongst other things. That said I don’t know how comfortable I’d be spending £3k ish on an upgraded £1300 table or £6-7k ish on an upgraded £3k table...
I really don’t think the power supply is that big of a deal. The arm? A G with an SME would be killer. But SME doesn’t sell arms separately anymore. I don’t see the big deal about the Jelco, and they have closed. It’d be nuts to put a Rega on it, so to me it’s a non issue.
Yeah I’m sure you’re right and I’ve no doubt it’d be a huge step up for any of us. I think more of what I’ve been reading is not that they aren’t good but more that maybe it could be more at the price point. I know that since SME stoped selling arms on their own timestep offer their own arm (based on SME design) or a Glanz tonearm for big money. That said if I had the money to spend on the Glanz tonearm I’d hope that I’d also have the money to buy the sp10 rather than the sl1200, a £5.5k tonearm seems a bit too steep for a £1300/£3k turntable.
displayname
Well-Known Member
I'm going to echo that "worth it" is still pretty subjective at this point. I'd ask what the rest of your system looks like before saying a $4k ish table is worth it.Thanks fo the note and the comments on the build for the GR and G. I probably phrased my question poorly so for clarification, my ask was about other models/brands in this price range -- and then if the step up is significant and you go to the next level. Part of the challenge I'm trying to solve for is what area to invest in where the gains in each step yield the most significant results and where it tips over into more negligible gains.
For example: I run Devore Fidelity O/96 speakers because I thought that that step difference in sound was worth it. For turntables, the tiering is wonky for me -- there seems to be very high value gains in the jump from $3-500 to $2-4K; then a bit of a dearth of choices at $4-6K (Rega which I partially struggle at the price level with the lack of adjustability, but that my just be lack of experience on my end -- VPI which the aesthetics I don't care for...) and then a massive jump to tables I love (e.g. Palmer 2.5i) but I don't feel comfortable spending that much money on at this point. Possibly the in-between steps on the Blackbird, etc. but I don't really know.
I'm not sure that if I align to the Rolex example (though I understand the intent and goodwill in the statement and please know that this is only in the interest of clarification) in that the degree of function and sensitivity in a turntable has a significant relationship to the quality of output. To take the analogy further than it probably deserves: if I remember correctly, Rolex's for years were known for keeping inconsistent time (outside of the normal variances for all mechanical watches) -- you bought them for the status of the piece, the build, heritage, associations -- and that has something do with the resurgence of the brand today. You buy a classic submariner because that is a very particularly type of a piece of art you want to wear (and possibly is a message you want to send) but not necessarily because it is going to keep better time.
I'm asking the question to strike a middle ground: at what price point (range) can one purchase a table that provides a close approximation of top-tier performance and where is the tipping point where that value rolls over into smaller differences, aesthetics, fetishization of the art of a turntable, etc.? Is $4K the point where the gains above that become more highly specialized; $2K as the Mofi tables seem to bring a lot of joy? -- $6-10K and holy cow that's the difference between a jetta and a 335?....because $20K (Palmer, for me) seems like buying the classic Rolex, but I don't really know and so thought I should ask
@HiFi Guy had posted something a while back around audio being something that one should strike a balance between cost, joy, etc and so i thought he might have some thoughts.
For example, I'd stop looking at it as a table. I'd start just considering the vinyl section as a whole, and how that pairs to your system.
If you have a nice warm tube amp that pairs with your O96s, you might want some oomf and precision feeding into your system.
In that case I think something like a 1200G + cart in the $1k range (hana ml or above) + 20/20 or Duo + a decent investment of cables of choice would be a stunning front end.
But maybe your amp/speaker combo could use a little more boogie. Well then maybe a VPI paired with a higher end grado would be a better fit.
You can also mix and match everything above. The options are endless. But you shouldn't be asking what do I get out of spending more. You should be asking what direction do I want my system to go, and what are the best parts I can afford help me get there. Maybe it's a $4K TT, but maybe it's a new loom of cables. A better preamp. Etc.
I can tell you this, if I was playing at that end of the pool, I'd only buy things I could demo/return. And once the world opens back up, I think long drives or hifi trips tend to be worth the while. A plane ticket can end up being a lot less than a depreciation on something you end up selling because you didn't like it.
kvetcha
Well-Known Member
I've heard the Devore Fidelity Orangutan Reference and...uh...I am jealous.
HuddieLedbetter
Well-Known Member
Thanks so much!
HuddieLedbetter
Well-Known Member
That's great advice. Thanks
Another thing to consider is if you are tying to upgrade or finish. For the past few years, I’ve been on a finish mission. This tends to cost more up front, but then there’s no expense beyond styli, belts and tubes in my situation.
AnthonyI
Well-Known Member
Agreed, although that "Finish/End Game" can get a bit slippery when certain opportunities pop up, lol. Kidding aside, the only thing "big gear" wise I would entertain would be possibly jumping to a DUO, again, if the right opportunity presented itself, outside of that, I'm pretty solid were I sit minus those "maintenance" expenses, carts, belts, tubes, as @HiFi Guy mentioned.
I think @HiFi Guy's point is very valid though, and can save a lot of headache and help in the progress of your build.
HuddieLedbetter
Well-Known Member
I'm probably at that awkward point of trying to "get closer to finished, but not quite there" -- as a few know, the recent pandemic resulted in the loss of my dad, and then my wife's aunt and father (he was a doctor in NY) these past 2.5 months. During most of that I was a single parent (to a delightful 4 and 7 that offer almost endless joys) and while she was with family I compulsively bought stacks of vinyl as each day closed. (We didn't tell the kids until Friday) Let's just say it has been a very strange time...
So while I was incrementally putting pieces together (speakers, mytek digital bridge, musical surroundings Nova III phono preamp) I'm now trying to get to a "good" outcome on this journey. The worst of it is hopefully behind us and well, it would be spiritually healthy to play the music that has gotten me through on a system that is the best balance of somewhat (ridiculous sliding scale) affordable joy. It doesn't need to be finished, but I'm emotionally very comfortable in investing in this as (at least part) of my memory of this time.
So Id like to buy a new 'table and either integrated or separates tube amp/pre-amp, cables, and because I apparently desperately need one -- a decent record cleaner
So I hope that context helps and isn't too heavy
(I do know it's A little weird, sorry in advance and thanks to all)PrimaLogue (400?) -- integrated or separates?
Technics, Clear Audio, Friekert
Search for a BAT bargain?
Rogue?
Linear Tube Audio?
I don't think I could wait for a decware -- four months is too long and the remote is "maybe" (though much less than the wait time) a thing that would bother me
Side note:. I will at some point build -- with help? - the Elekit 8600 (300B) because I just love the idea (same reason the mechanical aspect of the Palmer is so neat to me) of that straight connection. I just think it is really neat.
I'll buy most in the next month -- or stage it based on guidance. Thanks all.
I'm probably at that awkward point of trying to "get closer to finished, but not quite there" -- as a few know, the recent pandemic resulted in the loss of my dad, and then my wife's aunt and father (he was a doctor in NY) these past 2.5 months. During most of that I was a single parent (to a delightful 4 and 7 that offer almost endless joys) and while she was with family I compulsively bought stacks of vinyl as each day closed. (We didn't tell the kids until Friday) Let's just say it has been a very strange time...
So while I was incrementally putting pieces together (speakers, mytek digital bridge, musical surroundings Nova III phono preamp) I'm now trying to get to a "good" outcome on this journey. The worst of it is hopefully behind us and well, it would be spiritually healthy to play the music that has gotten me through on a system that is the best balance of somewhat (ridiculous sliding scale) affordable joy. It doesn't need to be finished, but I'm emotionally very comfortable in investing in this as (at least part) of my memory of this time.
So Id like to buy a new 'table and either integrated or separates tube amp/pre-amp, cables, and because I apparently desperately need one -- a decent record cleaner
So I hope that context helps and isn't too heavy
PrimaLogue (400?) -- integrated or separates?
Technics, Clear Audio, Friekert
Search for a BAT bargain?
Rogue?
Linear Tube Audio?
I don't think I could wait for a decware -- four months is too long and the remote is "maybe" (though much less than the wait time) a thing that would bother me
Side note:. I will at some point build -- with help? - the Elekit 8600 (300B) because I just love the idea (same reason the mechanical aspect of the Palmer is so neat to me) of that straight connection. I just think it is really neat.
I'll buy most in the next month -- or stage it based on guidance. Thanks all.
Wow. That’s awful. I can’t imagine. I am so sorry.
To answer a couple of questions for you, a couple of things stand out:
Of what you’ve listed, I’d definitely go Technics. They are bulletproof and sound great. You’ve got the advantage of a detachable headshell, so if you wanted, you could have a stereo and mono cartridge or a great cartridge and a cheap one for beaten records, or all 3. Or not.
if you are thinking PrimaLuna 400, separates at that level will cost double. I went integrated and don’t regret it at all. I’d definitely buy the 400 integrated over the 100 separates. Keep in mind, if headphones are important, you have that ability with the integrated. With the separates, you’d have to buy a headphone amp.
Rogue Audio tube amps sound great but aren’t well designed. When an output tube goes (and it will with any tube amp) it’ll also take out resistors as well. You’ll need to send it off for service. The very worst thing that’ll happen with a PrimaLuna is a blown fuse on the adaptive autobias board- and that’s only in an extreme case. No tech needed- you can replace the fuse yourself. Usually, you’ll get a bad tube light. Replace the tube and go on your merry way.
Yes, you’ll want a record vacuum machine of some sort. It makes a huge difference.
HuddieLedbetter
Well-Known Member
My thanks. I try to keep in mind that it has come also with a lot of blessings. Switching to job, home-schooling, single parenting, while working through my loss was a shift -- but I also got so close to my kids (they may have heard more Pharoah Sanders than your average 4 and 7 year old...) as I used to travel 70% for work and I was able to give my wife the time to be with her family. Her dad's fight was hard and long, but that also meant that I was better prepared to support her now. A few friends made huge differences in my day to day functioning and taught me more about love, empathy, and support. I'm also mindful that I've still got a job during a time that has been hard for so many, been able to donate some, kept the kids well-fed, did all the dad things, and bought a bunch of records -- some of which my dad would have really loved. There was a great moment here when my dad passed that a bunch folks spun some Brubeck (What's Spinning) that in a time of no funerals was deeply affecting for me and filled a huge gap and is a piece that I'll carry to my last day. Empathy, and kindness are amazing. So yes, it got weird, but I'm good, lucky is so many ways. I get to talk about records.
(and hey folks, wash hands, wear a mask)
and In a transparent effort to get the thread on track, how much of a difference is there between an integrated prima and the separates -- because it seems like $4k and I've always been inclined toward separates because, well, tinkering....
HuddieLedbetter
Well-Known Member
Perfect... Thanks!
If you are looking at PrimaLuna 400 level separates and its in budget- go for it.