Political Discussion

I wonder if Trump's NATO statements last week are going to paradoxically strengthen Biden's public commitment to Israel despite the backchannel stories about his growing frustrations with Netanyahu.

The left can't be wringing its hands about threats of abandoning our (bound by treaty) allies while simultaneously considering withdrawing support of our (bound by treaty) ally. Those are incompatible concerns. The more the US has to reassure the world that we will honor our commitments to our allies, the less likely it is that Biden will start using strong language to criticize Israel on the record.

Biden's death at this juncture would only catalyze a chain of events that accelerates instability across the globe. For those who have claimed here that this couldn't possibly have been handled any worse, I think your imaginations are failing you.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
This is probably too nuanced of a conversation to have on a message board. I regret bringing up my concerns. I wish you all nothing but the best.
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One of the things I truly love about this place is that a discussion this nuanced CAN happen on a message board and remain quite thoughtful through disagreement without rancor, spite and malice taking over and derailing the whole thread. I would certainly agree that on the vast majority of message boards it would completely impossible to have even made it this far into a conversation like this — y'all truly are a bunch of special fuckers! And I'm ever so grateful to have the lot of you in my life. Thanks for being y'all through it all. 💜
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I wonder if Trump's NATO statements last week are going to paradoxically strengthen Biden's public commitment to Israel despite the backchannel stories about his growing frustrations with Netanyahu.

The left can't be wringing its hands about threats of abandoning our (bound by treaty) allies while simultaneously considering withdrawing support of our (bound by treaty) ally. Those are incompatible concerns. The more the US has to reassure the world that we will honor our commitments to our allies, the less likely it is that Biden will start using strong language to criticize Israel on the record.

Biden's death at this juncture would only catalyze a chain of events that accelerates instability across the globe. For those who have claimed here that this couldn't possibly have been handled any worse, I think your imaginations are failing you.
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Two points of distinction. NATO allies aren’t currently perpetrating gross violations of human rights. Putin and China are much bigger threats to our ways of life than alienating Israel is.
 
avecigrec said:
One of the things I truly love about this place is that a discussion this nuanced CAN happen on a message board and remain quite thoughtful through disagreement without rancor, spite and malice taking over and derailing the whole thread. I would certainly agree that on the vast majority of message boards it would completely impossible to have even made it this far into a conversation like this — y'all truly are a bunch of special fuckers! And I'm ever so grateful to have the lot of you in my life. Thanks for being y'all through it all. 💜
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Oh no doubt and I know I replied directly to you but I was more in a larger sense. My regret had to do with me unintentionally touching a nerve.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I wonder if Trump's NATO statements last week are going to paradoxically strengthen Biden's public commitment to Israel despite the backchannel stories about his growing frustrations with Netanyahu.

The left can't be wringing its hands about threats of abandoning our (bound by treaty) allies while simultaneously considering withdrawing support of our (bound by treaty) ally. Those are incompatible concerns. The more the US has to reassure the world that we will honor our commitments to our allies, the less likely it is that Biden will start using strong language to criticize Israel on the record.

Biden's death at this juncture would only catalyze a chain of events that accelerates instability across the globe. For those who have claimed here that this couldn't possibly have been handled any worse, I think your imaginations are failing you.
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The answer to the question, “What could be worse than Biden?” says a lot about one’s worldview.
 
Joe Mac said:
Two points of distinction. NATO allies aren’t currently perpetrating gross violations of human rights. Putin and China are much bigger threats to our ways of life than alienating Israel is.
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The contextual circumstances are different, but the substance of action is not. Unless the treaties and supporting legislation have clauses exempting support for certain behaviors it’s still quite a tough needle to thread without signaling worldwide that the US can’t be trusted to support its allies, something which is already in doubt due to Trump’s reckless statements.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
The contextual circumstances are different, but the substance of action is not. Unless the treaties and supporting legislation have clauses exempting support for certain behaviors it’s still quite a tough needle to thread without signaling worldwide that the US can’t be trusted to support its allies, something which is already in doubt due to Trump’s reckless statements.
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I don’t think alliances are a sustainable practice unless you can break them off, or at least admonish and enforce consequences, for reprehensible behaviour and very little behaviour is more reprehensible than genocide.

The last four years have largely mended American foreign relations in serious quarters but the unswerving support for Isreal and the seeming hesitation to continue support for Ukraine could test that. Trump will obviously destroy it again.
 
Joe Mac said:
I don’t think alliances are a sustainable practice unless you can break them off, or at least admonish and enforce consequences, for reprehensible behaviour and very little behaviour is more reprehensible than genocide.

The last four years have largely mended American foreign relations in serious quarters but the unswerving support for Isreal and the seeming hesitation to continue support for Ukraine could test that. Trump will obviously destroy it again.
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Agree. Just pointing to some additional reasons why there might be an abundance of caution against unintentionally communicating that we are open to heads of state unilaterally modifying longstanding alliances. That knife cuts both directions.
 
avecigrec said:
Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson could bring it home, I bet. Then it would be the Wrestlemania Election!
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Omg and Jesse Ventura as his vp…

I kid, I kid,
BUT, given the level of inequality, drastic change is becoming more and more a possibility. Historically, these amounts of inequality have led to all sorts of conflicts, and yes, violence. The reason billionaires shouldn’t exist is not just because of their reliance upon slave labor and environmental exploitation, but because mass indebtedness and giant wealth gaps are ultimately destabilizing for any society. Our grand experiment can only be successful if more people have some wealth and are able to enrich their communities with that wealth. Ultimately, most European nations embraced a form of socialism post monarchy because they understood the destabilizing effect of few haves and many more have nots. It’s not perfect but it’s a lot better than being in debt for the rest of your life due to medical issues or because you wanted an education.

I see us just kicking this can down the road, which only makes things worse. Joe will keep things status quo while Trump will likely hasten and create worse class conflict. He will make laws that make the rich richer and the poor poorer, which will lead to quicker destabilization. The best thing Joe can do is relieve debt—both medical and student loans, and try to influence the Fed not to do any more stupid things like raising interest rates.
Joe Mac said:
Two points of distinction. NATO allies aren’t currently perpetrating gross violations of human rights. Putin and China are much bigger threats to our ways of life than alienating Israel is.
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This is a tinderbox as well.
China and Russia are both working towards the dedollarization of the world so they can achieve global domination. The thing that worries me the most are the countries in Africa and South America where China is helping fund infrastructure. The West could have done this and secured democracy in all these countries but our industrialist thought it was better to exploit the people and put them in debt. China looks like a hero compared to the West.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
The assumption was that having a pocket computer with access to all the world’s collective knowledge would make everyone smarter and more well informed.

How wrong we were.
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One of my favorite books, The Postmodern Condition, by Jean-François Lyotard, was written in 1979 and basically predicted this exact kind of effect if we were able to achieve this technologically. Crazy that he was able to see this kind of outcome back then.
 
Hemotep said:
One of my favorite books, The Postmodern Condition, by Jean-François Lyotard, was written in 1979 and basically predicted this exact kind of effect if we were able to achieve this technologically. Crazy that he was able to see this kind of outcome back then.
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Not really. It’s a logical progression of giving stupid people access to too
much information.
 
Lee Newman said:
Not really. It’s a logical progression of giving stupid people access to too
much information.
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In the 70s before the PC was even a thing, no one thought that way. It's a lot easier from our vantage to look back and say it was common sense, but it really wasn't at the time at all.
 
Hemotep said:
One of my favorite books, The Postmodern Condition, by Jean-François Lyotard, was written in 1979 and basically predicted this exact kind of effect if we were able to achieve this technologically. Crazy that he was able to see this kind of outcome back then.
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Have you ever read Vernor Vince’s “true names”? Also way ahead of its time. Neuromancer gets the street cred but Gibson was a hack compared to Vinge
 
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