Totally Tubular: The Tube Thread

Below is the result of 35 years in the hobby and a lot of overtime:cool:.

Main Speakers: B&W 801 Series 3
Power Amps: VTL 450MKII
Pre-amp: Mcintosh C2500
DAC: Esoteric D-7
Multiple Format Digital Disc Player: Esoteric DV-50
Phono Pre-Amp: Jolida JD-9
Turntable: Technics SL-1210MKII w/Jelco 750 9”arm, Cartridge Hana EL.
Turntable: Technics SL-1800MKII Cartridge, AT-33PTG/III
Turntable: Denon DP-500m w/Jelco 750 9”arm, Cartridge AT-150MLX /w ATN150Sa stylus
Computer: Late 2012 Mini Mac
NAS: QNAP 251+
 
Well, after living with the Icon Audio Stereo 30 integrated amp for a couple of weeks, I’ve decided it’s not for me.

Pros:

An indescribable tonal purity in the mids and treble. One of the best I’ve heard at any price.

Build quality/fit and finish is good. The PrimaLuna is excellent- 5 coats of lacquer with clear coat. The PrimaLuna has a better remote (furniture protectors).

It didn’t run nearly as hot as I expected- actually it was cooler than the PL by a bit. Then again, it has 9 fewer tubes.

Cons:

Can only be used with KT-150 output tubes.

It has a power switch and a separate standby switch. When the amp is off, use the side mounted power switch. After a minute or two, use the front panel switch to turn it on from standby to operate. You hear a huge mechanical thump inside the amp- not through the speakers. I do like the two stage power up though- power isn’t added to the output tubes until the amp is stable. Prima Lina does the same thing with one switch and a time delay relay.

The PrimaLuna has a true mute- the Icon remote just turns the volume down really fast. You can return to the same volume with the PL by using mute on the remote. The Icon requires turning the volume up again from zero.

Bass is wonky. Detail is beautiful without being analytical. Sometimes the bass quantity is quite astonishing. Other times it sounds lean. An example would be The Beatles Abbey Road. It’s not a balanced album- Paul’s bass on Come Together is very prominent. Not so with the Icon- it’s not nearly as forward on the mix. It sounds very balanced, which to me is wrong for this album.

Icon seems to have no service locations in the US. The owner’s manual simply says that any competent technician should be able to repair it if necessary. It’s a simple design with no esoteric parts. I’m confident I could repair it myself if necessary- I just don’t want to. On the plus side, the plates for the output tubes are fuse protected. Should an output tube fail catastrophically, it should just blow the plate fuse with no collateral damage, but that’s just a guess by looking at the circuit. Do not dig around inside a tube amp unless you know what you are doing. Lethal voltages are inside and you could be killed- no joke.

The PL is (to me) easily the better if the two amps overall, and service is easily obtained if necessary.

So, it’s headed back to Music Direct. It cost me a few bucks in return shipping to basically make me stop looking at amplifiers.

It does feel kinda weird to be settled, system wise. Weird, but good.

Now if I ever came across a screaming deal on a pair of Manley Labs Mahi monoblock amps and a Jumbo Shrimp preamp, I might become unsettled.
:cool:
 
Well, after living with the Icon Audio Stereo 30 integrated amp for a couple of weeks, I’ve decided it’s not for me.

Pros:

An indescribable tonal purity in the mids and treble. One of the best I’ve heard at any price.

Build quality/fit and finish is good. The PrimaLuna is excellent- 5 coats of lacquer with clear coat. The PrimaLuna has a better remote (furniture protectors).

It didn’t run nearly as hot as I expected- actually it was cooler than the PL by a bit. Then again, it has 9 fewer tubes.

Cons:

Can only be used with KT-150 output tubes.

It has a power switch and a separate standby switch. When the amp is off, use the side mounted power switch. After a minute or two, use the front panel switch to turn it on from standby to operate. You hear a huge mechanical thump inside the amp- not through the speakers. I do like the two stage power up though- power isn’t added to the output tubes until the amp is stable. Prima Lina does the same thing with one switch and a time delay relay.

The PrimaLuna has a true mute- the Icon remote just turns the volume down really fast. You can return to the same volume with the PL by using mute on the remote. The Icon requires turning the volume up again from zero.

Bass is wonky. Detail is beautiful without being analytical. Sometimes the bass quantity is quite astonishing. Other times it sounds lean. An example would be The Beatles Abbey Road. It’s not a balanced album- Paul’s bass on Come Together is very prominent. Not so with the Icon- it’s not nearly as forward on the mix. It sounds very balanced, which to me is wrong for this album.

Icon seems to have no service locations in the US. The owner’s manual simply says that any competent technician should be able to repair it if necessary. It’s a simple design with no esoteric parts. I’m confident I could repair it myself if necessary- I just don’t want to. On the plus side, the plates for the output tubes are fuse protected. Should an output tube fail catastrophically, it should just blow the plate fuse with no collateral damage, but that’s just a guess by looking at the circuit. Do not dig around inside a tube amp unless you know what you are doing. Lethal voltages are inside and you could be killed- no joke.

The PL is (to me) easily the better if the two amps overall, and service is easily obtained if necessary.

So, it’s headed back to Music Direct. It cost me a few bucks in return shipping to basically make me stop looking at amplifiers.

It does feel kinda weird to be settled, system wise. Weird, but good.

Now if I ever came across a screaming deal on a pair of Manley Labs Mahi monoblock amps and a Jumbo Shrimp preamp, I might become unsettled.
:cool:
And now someone can keep their eyes peeled for a good deal on an open box icon amp in the next week or two.
 
One ot the sets of GL KT88s has developed a horrible hum on it, looks like Im going to need a new pair. I was hoping to get more than a year out them, I might need to look for cheaper tubes if Im replacing them pretty regularly. Any suggestions?
 
One ot the sets of GL KT88s has developed a horrible hum on it, looks like Im going to need a new pair. I was hoping to get more than a year out them, I might need to look for cheaper tubes if Im replacing them pretty regularly. Any suggestions?

I’d look towards Electroharmonix. You could also substitute 6550s in place if KT88s. They are more durable but don’t sound quite as good, at least to me.

Did you swap tubes from one channel to the other to verify?
 
I’d look towards Electroharmonix. You could also substitute 6550s in place if KT88s. They are more durable but don’t sound quite as good, at least to me.

Did you swap tubes from one channel to the other to verify?

I did, the hum followed the tubes. I had also already switched out all 3 different types of tubes I had to check (I had the original tubes stored that came with it). I’m running it on the stock quad kt88s on both channels for now until I get around to getting either 2 more GLs or a matching set of 4 by another brand.
 
@Splunders How is the PL after you’ve lived with it for a bit?
I'm really enjoying it. Its so much more airy, yet brawny than my previous amp. I've got about 80 or so hours on it, and the initial treble harshness has vanished. Its got a taller and a little wider soundstage, with more defined placement of instruments as well. Drums are particularly crisp and snappy. It isn't exactly euphonic or romantic, but the mids are certainly more lush than with any solid state amp I've had. The bass is more than enough as well. I was beginning to second guess selling my sub prior to this, but no longer. I've even had to adjust the height of my down firing Zu Dirty Weekends to compensate for the added low end.

Given this was $1k new, and I'm running it with a $350 passive preamp, I'm very impressed and happy with my purchase. The price to performance ratio rep that PrimaLuna has is legit. I'm in no rush, but I imagine I'll be able to further unlock its capabilities with a comparable quality preamp in the future. I'm reading about the PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium preamp, which purportedly has a more romantic, "tubey" sound. It might fit nicely with this amp, particularly given the detail and bass strengths this amp's KT88s bring to the table.
 
I'm really enjoying it. Its so much more airy, yet brawny than my previous amp. I've got about 80 or so hours on it, and the initial treble harshness has vanished. Its got a taller and a little wider soundstage, with more defined placement of instruments as well. Drums are particularly crisp and snappy. It isn't exactly euphonic or romantic, but the mids are certainly more lush than with any solid state amp I've had. The bass is more than enough as well. I was beginning to second guess selling my sub prior to this, but no longer. I've even had to adjust the height of my down firing Zu Dirty Weekends to compensate for the added low end.

Given this was $1k new, and I'm running it with a $350 passive preamp, I'm very impressed and happy with my purchase. The price to performance ratio rep that PrimaLuna has is legit. I'm in no rush, but I imagine I'll be able to further unlock its capabilities with a comparable quality preamp in the future. I'm reading about the PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium preamp, which purportedly has a more romantic, "tubey" sound. It might fit nicely with this amp, particularly given the detail and bass strengths this amp's KT88s bring to the table.

PL is a good choice. Another good choice would be a Manley Jumbo Shrimp.
 
PL is a good choice. Another good choice would be a Manley Jumbo Shrimp.
I think I assumed all their stuff started at 5k, which is, well a LOT. Looks like brand new, the shrimp starts at $3,800. If I got used, could be attainable with a little luck and good timing. Thanks for the suggestion - I know they are tube EVEANNAgelists, and would be awesome to someday hear their gear. And I do want to get back on the made in usa wagon again here too, but the PL gear is so dang tempting
 
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I think I assumed all their stuff started at 5k, which is, well a LOT. Looks like brand new, the shrimp starts at $3,800. If I got used, could be attainable with a little luck and good timing. Thanks for the suggestion - I know they are tube EVEANNAgelists, and would be awesome to someday hear their gear. And I do want to get back on the made in usa wagon again here too, but the PL gear is so dang tempting

I saw a mint used Jumbo Shrimp go for $1500 recently. I went to get it and it was gone.

There was a huge price hike some years back which killed the value of buying Manley gear new. Watch for deals on used gear.
 
Well, after living with the Icon Audio Stereo 30 integrated amp for a couple of weeks, I’ve decided it’s not for me.

Pros:

An indescribable tonal purity in the mids and treble. One of the best I’ve heard at any price.

Build quality/fit and finish is good. The PrimaLuna is excellent- 5 coats of lacquer with clear coat. The PrimaLuna has a better remote (furniture protectors).

It didn’t run nearly as hot as I expected- actually it was cooler than the PL by a bit. Then again, it has 9 fewer tubes.

Cons:

Can only be used with KT-150 output tubes.

It has a power switch and a separate standby switch. When the amp is off, use the side mounted power switch. After a minute or two, use the front panel switch to turn it on from standby to operate. You hear a huge mechanical thump inside the amp- not through the speakers. I do like the two stage power up though- power isn’t added to the output tubes until the amp is stable. Prima Lina does the same thing with one switch and a time delay relay.

The PrimaLuna has a true mute- the Icon remote just turns the volume down really fast. You can return to the same volume with the PL by using mute on the remote. The Icon requires turning the volume up again from zero.

Bass is wonky. Detail is beautiful without being analytical. Sometimes the bass quantity is quite astonishing. Other times it sounds lean. An example would be The Beatles Abbey Road. It’s not a balanced album- Paul’s bass on Come Together is very prominent. Not so with the Icon- it’s not nearly as forward on the mix. It sounds very balanced, which to me is wrong for this album.

Icon seems to have no service locations in the US. The owner’s manual simply says that any competent technician should be able to repair it if necessary. It’s a simple design with no esoteric parts. I’m confident I could repair it myself if necessary- I just don’t want to. On the plus side, the plates for the output tubes are fuse protected. Should an output tube fail catastrophically, it should just blow the plate fuse with no collateral damage, but that’s just a guess by looking at the circuit. Do not dig around inside a tube amp unless you know what you are doing. Lethal voltages are inside and you could be killed- no joke.

The PL is (to me) easily the better if the two amps overall, and service is easily obtained if necessary.

So, it’s headed back to Music Direct. It cost me a few bucks in return shipping to basically make me stop looking at amplifiers.

It does feel kinda weird to be settled, system wise. Weird, but good.

Now if I ever came across a screaming deal on a pair of Manley Labs Mahi monoblock amps and a Jumbo Shrimp preamp, I might become unsettled.
:cool:

Glad that you were able to scratch the itch with a little monetary output and time the being the only real cost. Realizing how much you love your PL was worth it I would think! Thanks for sharing the experience!
 
My turn to go and do a thing. While my Schiit Saga preamp is no slouch, especially since it was only $350 new, I'd been wanting to level up that component since I got my PrimaLuna ProLogue 5 amp. I've been following LTA for awhile because they are made in the US, utilize tubes in a very interesting manner, and most of all - every single review called out their wide open and precise soundstage as their defining trait. I love how my soundstage has gotten bigger, and instrument placement more specific with all my other upgrades, but I want even more.

This is their entry level integrated/preamp/headphone amp. (Mine will be a used unit they just posted on their website, which I've been stalking daily) I'll use it primarily as a preamp, but I'm really curious what 1 good watt will do with my Zus. It wont best my PL, but it will be fun to play with. I've also never heard headphones thru a great headphone amp, and this unit has/is one. I'M SUPER EXCITED YOU GUYS!! Now I need to figure out to explain this new box to my wife when it arrives...
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So, I’ve had the Linear Tube Audio MZ2 w/Linear Power Supply for about 2 weeks or so now. I’ve had the chance to use it as both a pre-amp and an integrated (0.5 watts/ch!), as well as swap my previous pre-amp (Schiit Saga) and amp (DIY Amp Camp Amp 8 watts/ch) in and out for some quick, back-to-back comparisons. I think I have a pretty good handle on what the MZ2 does for my particular system. The LTA website has all the specifics (tube complement, gain, features, etc)


TL;DR Me like!

As Preamplifier

The biggest factor in choosing this particular box of wires and tubes was the expectation, based on many reviews, of an enlarged soundstage, with more air and space between the instruments. In my brief experience, this is easily the most noticeable trait. After comparing the Schiit Saga and the MZ2 in quick succession, both going thru my PrimaLuna Prologue 5 amp, I could “measure” a gain of about 2 feet higher and about a foot wider than with the Saga. In my room, this translates to ~24 sq ft more soundstage. Some airier recordings pushed these boundaries a little further.

In regards to imaging and space, I listened to the first minute of The National Anthem from Kid A to get a sense of tone from the electric bass line that drives the song, as well as the atmospheric swirl going on around it. I think I now understand the audiophile term “smearing” a lot more . With the MZ2, the lead in and out of notes are much more in focus than before (besides having more space to swirl around). With the Saga, this was all done in tighter confines and with less focus. Same results when listening to How To Disappear Completely, particularly at the 5:23 mark when Thom’s vocals release into the clearing – bigger background, greater separation between vocals and orchestra, with better underlying bass and overall dynamics.

All in all, as a preamp, the MZ2 does what I bought it to do. I’m totally happy with it.

As Integrated Amplifier

I bought the MZ2 as a preamp, but the fact that it could be used as an integrated was certainly a curiosity for me. Given I have a pair of pretty efficient Zu Audio Dirty Weekends, I had to see what .5 watt could do. I was shocked by what I heard. The volume knob got to 3 o’clock before it was too loud, and that was with my phono stage being at its lowest setting of 40db. All of the above traits mentioned about the MZ2 as a preamp held true. The soundstage was exactly the same size with the MZ2 as it was as a preamp thru the PL. All of the space and focus was still there too. Even the bass was impressive (DJ Shadow – Our Pathetic Age Rosie really bumped!)

When compared to the PrimaLuna amp (36 watts/ch) however, bass meat did fall off the bone, especially in the mids, but also in finer texture and absolute bottom end. As a result, dynamics lessened and the overall experience was less enjoyable, but still certainly acceptable. I also tried my previous DIY AmpCampAmp (with the MZ2 as preamp) and while the tone is nice, the soundstage shrunk to exactly within the confines of the height and width of my speakers. This amp actually restricts the capabilities of the MZ2 in that regard. Based on what I heard with all the pairings of preamps/amps/integrated, the MZ2 and the PL unsurprisingly worked the best together. Each component gets to bring what they do best to the table, without interfering with the other.

As a preamp, I got exactly what I wanted. As an integrated, I’m really happy with how well it performed, especially in case some tragedy befalls my PL amp or my tubes die unexpectedly. Oh, yeah this is also a headphone amp! Apparently an elite one at that. I listen to my stereo via headphones maybe a few times a year, so I have very little reference to go by. I will say my Grados sounded really nice, though!

Lastly I should mention LTA’s customer service was really great. This was a used piece so it arrived much faster than new built to order components are. I received frequent updates from LTA regarding shipping status as well as nearly immediate responses to a few questions I had along the way.

20200406_145317.jpg20200406_144319.jpg20200406_144327.jpg20200412_112726.jpg
 
Well, this thread has been quiet since my last purchase post, so I thought a good way to reinvigorate things is to buy even more tubed gear. As I've alluded on other threads, I picked up a used Manley Chinook. In this case the SE Mk II edition that Upscale put together with Manley. The primary difference vs stock is different tubes, additional 5db boosts to the standard 45 or 60db gain options, and in my case the front being black, rather than Manley purple. I now have SIXTEEN tubes between my TT and speakers.

I've only had the chance to listen to a few albums and am still digesting things. I recently got a Musical Surroundings Nova II, and while quite nice and detailed, it was so neutral to the point of being shy and a bit dull. The Chinook is already adding some blood and muscle to things, if that makes sense. I'm also playing around with its settings, and still need to make sure its set to the lowest gain possible (I'm having trouble determining if its at 45 or 50db at the moment).

Once I'm acclimated to the Chinook, I'll be mounting the Grado Gold3 with my 8mz to the equation, which should elevate things another notch. My poor bank account...
20200508_151532.jpg
 
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Well, this thread has been quiet since my last purchase post, so I thought a good way to reinvigorate things is to buy even more tubed gear. As I've alluded on other threads, I picked up a used Manley Chinook. In this case the SE Mk II edition that Upscale put together with Manley. The primary difference vs stock is different tubes, additional 5db boosts to the standard 45 or 60db gain options, and in my case the front being black, rather than Manley purple. I now have SIXTEEN tubes between my TT and speakers.

I've only had the chance to listen to a few albums and am still digesting things. I recently got a Musical Surroundings Nova II, and while quite nice and detailed, it was so neutral to the point of being shy and a bit dull. The Chinook is already adding some blood and muscle to things, if that makes sense. I'm also playing around with its settings, and still need to make sure its set to the lowest gain possible (I'm having trouble determining if its at 45 or 50db at the moment).

Once I'm acclimated to the Chinook, I'll be mounting the Grado Gold3 with my 8mz to the equation, which should elevate things another notch. My poor bank account...
View attachment 45804

Very nice! Manley Labs is probably the only gear I’d buy to replace my current setup. I’d love a Steelhead and a pair of Mahi amps. But that’s nearly double the cost of what I have now, and it’s not like I’m slumming.

16 tubes? I had around 20 in a setup I had at one point. It’s all fun and games until one of the tubes gets noisy and you have to track it down.
 
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