Psymon
Active Member
Jamal Murray, from the bench, tossing a heat pack onto the floor into play is both dangerous and pathetic. How did they not give him a T?!
The NBA Thread
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MikeH
Well-Known Member
You mean lots of offensive rebounds keeping possessions alive?
I think it’s ridiculous that a kickball can’t be challenged. And that the ref who called that had an obstructed view. I think it was the same ref who called the ball off Brunson when it clearly went off Nembhard.
Refs called a moving screen on Divo I think one possession prior to Turner getting called for a moving screen. Otherwise you never see them call moving screens.
They need to get rid of the L2M report. If there was no call, it would have said moving screen in the L2M report but it seemed like it should have just been a play on.
DownIsTheNewUp
Well-Known Member
He's frustrated because he is badly hurt for the 3rd time in 4 playoff runs. I'm not condoning it but I do feel bad for the dude. At least he's showing heart as opposed to Jokic who seems to have realized the team, with both Mal and KCP extremely hobbled, doesn't have what it takes this year and checked out.
Not sure I'll be able to look at him quite the same after that. But in the end, I'm mostly just pissed that I was right about onwership letting Tim Connley go and / or the fact that our current GM is a busrider that hasn't made a single good move since the Bruce Brown signing.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
that's not why he's frustrated. he's frustrated that they are losing the series and the refs were giving the wolves a better whistle early in the game (despite the wolves getting a worse whistle in game 1). you don't throw a heat pack on the court and do the money sign at the refs just because because you are annoyed that you're injured. he has to be better. won't be surprised if he gets suspended a game. wolves are looking like world beaters right now. nuggets look shook.
the refs definitely should have looked into it. not sure why they didn't during the game (or have the replay center look at it). i can see why they didn't know who threw it during the game but IMO that's something you need to look at because of how dangerous it could have been.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Legler with the zinger: "He was 3-for-18. I'm not shocked he missed Marc Davis with that heat pack."
DownIsTheNewUp
Well-Known Member
The guy shouldn't even be on the court but is so competitive that he is refusing to and is playing through a calf strain (and shin splints) that caused him to miss the final month of the season. He's playing awful because of it.
A guy nicknamed Glitch couldn't get seperation from Austin Reeves, a guy who shot 43% from deep and is an elite finisher has 0 lift on his shot and can't finish around the rim. And you don't think that has anything to do with it?
The officiating was one sided as hell in G2 and the whole team melted down over it. Especially Jokic who basically quit in protest.
But the root of both him and Jokic's (gross) behavior is the Mal injury and the fact that another post-season is being tanked by his inability to stay healthy.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
i'm not saying he isn't injured. i get that he wishes he was healthy. but if you throw a heat pack and a towel at a ref and do the money signs all because you're mad you have an injury, it's a crybaby mentality. my guess is he gets suspended at least a game. you can't throw shit at the refs and get away with it.
DownIsTheNewUp
Well-Known Member
I mean, no Nuggets fan is happy with his childish behavior. I'd be fine with a suspension because our medical staff and Malone don't even want him playing but gave him the final say (reports b4 g5 via ESPN).
But to act like the root of his behavior isn't the injuries is wild to me. Over 10 playoff series going into this one he had averaged 25/5/6 on 48/40/90. He averaged 21/4/6 on 48/43/85 this year.
Against the Lakers, Austin fucking Reeves, held him to under 40% from the field. Murray's struggles is not a Timberwolves thing- as elite as their defense is. So I feel for him as a competitor even if I think he needs to grow the fuck up. Because it's be rough to know your inability to stay healthy is costing your team another playoff run and everyone is shitting on you.
And really, as I said, I'm more concerned with how mentally checked out Jokic looks. Zero excuses and a legacy marring performance from him last night. At least Jamal had 13 rebounds.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
I’m not talking about his stats. I know he’s hurt. Not disputing that. I just don’t think he’s throwing heat packs at refs and doing the money symbol because he’s injured. And if he is, that’s absolutely wild. Haven’t seen that kind of behavior and it just reeks of being a sore loser.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
TenderLovingKiller®
Well-Known Member
Congrats to Jokić on his third MVP but him getting a third just feels wrong.
Shaq a single MVP
KD a single MVP
Dirk a single MVP
Kobe a single MVP
Steph Curry 2 x MVP
Tim Duncan 2 x MVP
Magic 3 x MVPs
Bird 3 x MVPs
Moses 3 x MVPs
Jokić 3 x MVPs
LeBron x 4 MVPs
Wilt x 4 MVPs
Bill Russell x 5 MVPs
Jordan x 5 MVPs
Kareem x 6 MVPs
The last two MVPs were well deserved and even this one is hard to dispute (though I would have went with SGA) but I just have a tough time including Jokić with the others that have earned 3+ MVPs. I would rate every player listed here as a better player than Jokić overall.
Shaq a single MVP
KD a single MVP
Dirk a single MVP
Kobe a single MVP
Steph Curry 2 x MVP
Tim Duncan 2 x MVP
Magic 3 x MVPs
Bird 3 x MVPs
Moses 3 x MVPs
Jokić 3 x MVPs
LeBron x 4 MVPs
Wilt x 4 MVPs
Bill Russell x 5 MVPs
Jordan x 5 MVPs
Kareem x 6 MVPs
The last two MVPs were well deserved and even this one is hard to dispute (though I would have went with SGA) but I just have a tough time including Jokić with the others that have earned 3+ MVPs. I would rate every player listed here as a better player than Jokić overall.
wmeugene
Well-Known Member
It does feel a little historically off when compared to others eras, but all three were earned and if either Giannis or Embiid (the main competition the past few years) had the same number it would feel similarly strange. If I had a vote this year, I likely would have gone SGA this year as well.
There’s part of me that thinks this is a bit of a transitional period in the NBA as I think the new crop of superstars really takes over in the next year or two.
TenderLovingKiller®
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Like I don’t hate the award individually. This isn’t like when Steve Nash won his 2nd MVP in 2006 instead of Kobe, it feels like Jokić earned it but it just seems wrong from a historical context. I wish Embiid would have won one. That seems like it would be more representative of the era as a whole. Like you said though the page is turning and new stars are gonna be in the conversation moving forward.
MattS
Well-Known Member
Wait, didn’t Embiid win one last year? I will say it does feel like Jokic (who is incredible and one of my favorite players to watch in a while) didn’t necessarily have as much competition as some of the names mentioned - Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk all fighting it out in the post-Jordan era with LeBron coming on. That could also be rooted in my own nostalgia and the fact that I was able to inhale much more basketball at 13 than I can now. But hard not to think of Jokic’s playoff run last year in a year when Embiid won over him and Philly again bowed out early as maybe lingering in the mind of some voters?
wmeugene
Well-Known Member
Yes, Embiid won last year, Jokic won in 21 and 22. Giannis won the two years before that. I think the three are going to be historically linked.
TenderLovingKiller®
Well-Known Member
Sorry, yes. I got my years mixed up. If Giannis had two, Embiid had two and Jokić had two it would paint a better picture of the era, in my opinion. I don’t feel like any at this point should have 3.
DownIsTheNewUp
Well-Known Member
I understand your take in regards to 3 and would have been 1000% fine with SGA winning it but...
Every single player?
I'd have him above KD / Dirk and on par with Shaq. I didn't watch Moses. Obviously, his career is not done and I do think he is going to wear down quicker than people think due to the burden of being an heliocentric hub at 300 lbs. He's already started dealing with back problems this year.
That said, this four year peak is up there with almost any other player I've watched post-Jordon. And every other single player on your list played with multiple all-stars. Jokic hasn't even played with an all-defensive player much less another all-star.
I personally believe Jamal was becoming somewhere between a Mitchell and Booker level player but he tore his ACL, in large part, because of the shortened offseason after the bubble. We were also trashing the rest of the West that season after making the AG trade and looked really, really dangeous.
Jamal has been healthy exactly 2 post-seasons out of the past 5. And those 2 years we made the WCF and won a chip. It falls apart without him because the entire system is built around the two man game and there is a derth of shot creation outside of them.
If Mal can't stay healthy next year, I honestly hope Jokic asks out- something I never thought I'd say- because I can already see this is going to be the common take once he's retired. A different, worse flavor of the Nash convo.
Also, Embid has played with Butler, Harden and Maxey. Plus, Ben when he was racking up all-stars and DPOY chatter. That's four all-stars, two HoF and one of the best playoff risers in NBA history.... and still hasn't made it out of the 2nd round.
He does not belong in the same historical breath as Jokic and Giannis anymore than Ewing does Hakeem.
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Astute observations that I agree with. This time of year is all about team health and the Nugs are hurting right now. Nikola asking out could become a reality and it would hurt the city, but biz is biz.
DownIsTheNewUp
Well-Known Member
Side note, Penny + Shaq / Dirk / Nash / Billups... those were my favorite players growing up. Throw in the early 00's Kings and you have a feel for all the teams that caused me to fall in love with the sport.
So I do not take saying Jokic > Dirk or Jokic = to Shaq lightly.
So I do not take saying Jokic > Dirk or Jokic = to Shaq lightly.
DownIsTheNewUp
Well-Known Member
I'd hate to see him leave because part of why it's a middling basketball city is because of how Melo exited and how the free agency situation is trash even when you have a HoF player on the team. I wanna see his Demver legacy cemented as somebody who built up the sport there.
But there is just such a toxic conversation around his career, one usually void of context that I badly want to see him get a 2nd ring. And I don't think it's gonna happen in Denver because Jamal can't stay healthy, the new CBA is rough and the team is low on assets.
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