Political Discussion

Chucktshoes said:
Unlike you, I didn’t pull numbers out of my ass.

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The Hidden Tribes of America

A year-long project of More in Common launched in October 2018. Download the ReportTake the QuizDownloadthe Midterms Update
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It’s interesting that you point to a centrist study, especially given a. your passionate belief that Government is bad and b. You Vehemently attack any suggestion at a centrist solution to gun control.
 
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This whole slippery slope into Communism is a tiresome argument that can easily be disproven with a simple glance at various political systems all over the world. It's a lazy argument at best, at it's most innocent it's confirmation bias.

It also doesn't take into account the deaths associated with capitalism, which are given cover by the ideas of "personal responsibility & individual freedom".
 
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Chucktshoes said:
Communism and socialism get conflated because the end results are functionally the same. The destruction of economic and personal liberty. Murdering someone may not be just the same as causing someone’s death through negligence, but it doesn’t make a damn bit a difference to the deceased.
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I'm having a hard time picturing a reality where socialism would ever cause the destruction of economic and personal liberties. Especially here in the united states. Capitalism will still prosper. It's okay to have some socialist aspects of government.

Sure the wealthy will need to pay more taxes, and my opinion their fair share. If I have to pay 30% of my income towards taxes so should they. People who have wealth often pay $0 in taxes. Just look at Jeff Bezos. Why should he be allowed to make millions/billions and be able to use loopholes only available to those who have money to eliminate his tax liabilities.

Taxing people like him at the same rate as I get taxed does not destroy our economic and personal liberties.

Also, the things we are referring to as socialism, such as Health Care for all should which is standard in many developed countries and works much better than our current system without the destruction of economic and personal liberties.

Also, if anything corporations will make more money, because overall costs of healthcare will go down. Yes taxes will go up, but premiums go away. We and corporate America will net out better.
 
Dtknuckles said:
This whole slippery slope into Communism is a tiresome argument that can easily be disproven with a simple glance at various political systems all over the world. It's a lazy argument at best, at it's most innocent it's confirmation bias.

It also doesn't take into account the deaths associated with capitalism, which are given cover by the ideas of "personal responsibility & individual freedom".
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I think it would be much more productive if people could discuss what impacts their life (positive or negative) without jumping to the blame game, easy out. If everything starts out as a defensive stance about right and wrong the average person's power is lessened. Taking complex arguments and turning them into yes or no ballot measures or political identities weakens democracy.

The willingness to accept correlation as causation on the part of many, most?, remains baffling to me in middle-age. The willingness to accept the tropes put forth by people screaming for attention and help on the internet is just as baffling.

What I observe everyday, through my individual filter, is a continued increase in the feelings of hopelessness and desperation. Many, Most?, appear to be less-comfortable and more concerned about their ability to achieve what is usually referred to as middle-class existence. Real or perceived these feelings lead to anger and a looking for someone to blame mentality (impotent rage). Instead of addressing the Why? of hopelessness or desperation folks tend to jump right to finger pointing? I assume because that's a lot easier than addressing systemic issues within ourselves and our society.

Every 2-4 years we look for another person to solve all of our problems when we can't even have a productive conversation with ourselves and our neighbors about what is impacting us and what the results of those impacts are on lives.

I'll just quote Tig Notaro: "Can you believe it?"

Edit:
 
And we haven't even addressed his behavior in this thread. @Chucktshoes continually walks the line of being intentionally provocative and insulting in here. But what do I care because the last time we had a discussion I was accused using polite words to essentially say he's an asshole. I've probably been put on block because he misinterprets a person pointing out flaws in his arguments as confrontational. Don't worry the irony is not lost on me, being he constantly rails against PC culture.

Let us remember he called everyone in here crazy a short while back and stood by it. Then he starts to stir the pot again by throwing insults at people (crazy once again) and then blows a mocking kiss.

This is not the behavior of a person who wants to have an honest discussion. He just wants to come in here provoke and laugh at us.
 
Chucktshoes said:
Unlike you, I didn’t pull numbers out of my ass.

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The Hidden Tribes of America

A year-long project of More in Common launched in October 2018. Download the ReportTake the QuizDownloadthe Midterms Update
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After spending some time digging through Google, I will concede that one of my numbers was spun around. Likely do to the edible I was on. It's roughly 70% of milllennials (and Gen Z) that disapprove of Trump (it's fluctuated between 35 and 30).

As to data on leanings- it varies from study to study but it seems only 30 to 35% of milllennials lean Republican.
This study from 2014 indicates HALF identify as independent even though the majority of that half is liberal leaning. Granted its older (2014) but there are also a ton of studies breaking down how millennials are growing MORE liberal as they age. And that study I was attempting to quote but can't find was a more recent one indicating that 40% of liberals under 37 (my generation starts in 82) identify as independents.

www.politico.com

Poll: Half of millennials independent

It's the highest level of political disaffiliation Pew has recorded for any generation in 25 years.
www.politico.com www.politico.com

Meanwhile socialism has repeatedly polled more favorably than capitalism among Gen Z and milllennials :

nymag.com

America’s Most Socialist Generation Is Also Its Most Misanthropic

Young adults are exceptionally distrustful of the state (and each other) — and yet, exceptionally supportive of socialism and redistribution.
nymag.com nymag.com

www.marketwatch.com

A growing number of millennials favor socialism over capitalism

In recent days, as more and more headlines paint the picture of a widening chasm between the rich and the poor and voters rally around progressive candidates...
www.marketwatch.com www.marketwatch.com

Also if we are going to use the progressive label than it would appear (according to several studies I pulled) that about 25% of people under 37 identify as progressive. Here is a study breaking down a ton of different topics for both Gen Z and Millennials versus other generations:

www.pewsocialtrends.org

Generation Z Looks a Lot Like Millennials on Key Social and Political Issues

As Gen Z moves toward adulthood, their views mirror those of Millennials on a range of issues, from Trump’s presidency to the role of government to racial equality. Among Republicans, Gen Z stands out on some key issues.
www.pewsocialtrends.org www.pewsocialtrends.org

And here is an article with links about how even though the solid majority of milllennials identity as liberal to very liberal on the issues, they are leaving the Democratic Party in droves and registering independent (which describes a huge chunk of the progressives I know and was my original point):

www.theguardian.com

Democrats are losing the millennial vote and need to change message | Cas Mudde

Young Americans are open and non-religious, but cool about gun control. The Democrats have to speak to their needs, says Guardian US columnist Cas Mudde
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

But as @jaycee points out, labels are a tricky thing. I personally consider Warren a progressive even if I prefer Bernie. And the field has basically cleared to her, Bernie and Biden. And that will put a real test to all of this. Because the numbers I've seen indicate Biden's support with millenials and gen z is under 10%. So it's going to become, where does Gen X fall.
 
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Joe Mac said:
She is really really a long way from communist, if she’s a communist then most a democratic Europe is farther left than communism, god knows what Scandinavia is and actual real communists, that we really should be scared of, get ignored because we dress the centre left as extremists in a way that they really aren’t.
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What are you talking about??? Everyone knows anyone who isn't right leaning is a COMMUNIST 😜
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
But as @jaycee points out, labels are a tricky thing.
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The point of my post wasn't this. It's to say that any of these labels (progressive, millennial, conservative, fiscal conservative, Gen Z, Gen X. etc., etc.) are about as useful as a box of hair. I say hair specifically because even the little microbes that eat us when we die can't digest the stuff. All of those labels are a means to sow division, to talk about polling numbers, and further fuel the propaganda machines. People buy into them because they want to point fingers at their fellow human for past and present bad decisions instead of identifying how those decisions arise from systemic issues.

Why should anybody care whether they are Gen Z or X or millennial or baby boomer? Why should anyone care that they call themselves progressive, or independent, or conservative, or republicon, or democrat? None of this is useful if anyone wants to actually discuss something meaningful. It's choosing sides. It's choosing teams.

If your only mission is to remove somebody from office and vote in a new or different kind-of false-prophet then by all means, but if the discussion is about what is actually happening in the day to day lives of people and how can we start to develop a dialogue that actually allows us to approach systemic problems with meaningful solutions picking sides doesn't help.

If our individual identities continue to be wrapped-up in these labels we will all continue to lose.

Note: I'm not convinced we can win regardless, but we'll put up a better fight if we quit wearing our team jerseys into every conversation
 
Dtknuckles said:
And we haven't even addressed his behavior in this thread. @Chucktshoes continually walks the line of being intentionally provocative and insulting in here. But what do I care because the last time we had a discussion I was accused using polite words to essentially say he's an asshole. I've probably been put on block because he misinterprets a person pointing out flaws in his arguments as confrontational. Don't worry the irony is not lost on me, being he constantly rails against PC culture.

Let us remember he called everyone in here crazy a short while back and stood by it. Then he starts to stir the pot again by throwing insults at people (crazy once again) and then blows a mocking kiss.

This is not the behavior of a person who wants to have an honest discussion. He just wants to come in here provoke and laugh at us.
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Actually, I don’t want to come in here at all, I just can’t help myself. As I’ve said multiple times before, my interactions on this thread just cause me to dislike folks because I find many of the views held by folks here to be abhorrent. Not necessarily what y'all want for folks, but how y’all want to go about it which generally involves actions that fall into the realm of what I would term as being actively evil. I default to thinking that holding those views as crazy because the other option is worse. I have made more than one legit offer to help, or depending on cost, totally cover the cost of the add on software that would allow folks (mostly me) to ignore threads.

I know my problems with this thread and how I react to what I learn about the folks on this board from it are MY problems, not y’all’s. The admins are upfront about theirs, and the board’s bias. The title of the thread alone makes that perfectly clear so I can’t place the blame on anyone else for making this my own personal hell.

So, I hate this thread and everything about it, but it’s the flame to my moth and I will most likely continue to make myself miserable by posting in it.
 
jaycee said:
Note: I'm not convinced we can win regardless, but we'll put up a better fight if we quit wearing our team jerseys into every conversation
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I agree with a lot of this as it pertains to politics. My favorite Bernie shirt from 2016 simply reads "fuck politics: vote Bernie"... because your message was the essence of his campaign- policy not party. But then the sociologist within me finds those labels so useful for sorting data and ideological differences between different groups.

By the way, did anybody see this article:

www.latimes.com

Column: Think Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren aren't electable? Talk to striking GM autoworkers

Many striking GM workers voted for Trump over Clinton. Remember that when you hear pundits say Sanders and Warren aren't electable.
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com

“We just want fair wages and compensation,” said picket line captain John Hatline, a 45-year GM employee whom I met at GM’s Poletown plant in Hamtramck. He noted that GM CEO Mary Barra earns more than $20 million a year. “Every day, she is earning $11,400 per hour,” he said. “Our highest paid members earn $30. The lowest make $12 to $15. We’ve gone 10 years without a raise.”

Like many of his colleagues, he was a fan of Sanders in 2016.

When Clinton became the nominee, he believes, many of those would-be Sanders voters defected. She was too friendly to Wall Street, too weighed down by the baggage of her husband’s trade policies, and the many Clinton scandals.

“They just wanted something new,” said Hatline, who voted for Clinton. “They would have voted for Bernie over Trump.”

I heard echoes of this comment everywhere I stopped. Remember this when the punditocracy alleges that lefty Democratic candidates like Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are too radical for the electorate."
 
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Count_Vader said:
It is hilarious that they throw Cold War era insults at people who were born in the 90's
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Or even those like me born in the early 80s. I mean I remember the Berlin Wall falling on the news because my parents made a point of making us watch it, but equally i was also 6. I have never met an actual real grown up adult communist...
 
Joe Mac said:
Or even those like me born in the early 80s. I mean I remember the Berlin Wall falling on the news because my parents made a point of making us watch it, but equally i was also 6. I have never met an actual real grown up adult communist...
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I have. Shocker he's not a grotesque monster hungering for my capitalist American blood
 
Count_Vader said:
I have. Shocker he's not a grotesque monster hungering for my capitalist American blood
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I mean I know a lot of people who dabbled with that nonsense in university but having actual responsibilities tends to cure them of it pretty quickly lol!
 
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