Political Discussion

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I agree with this a great deal, really. I think it's very difficult for us to square what aggregate data tells us against the lived experiences of ourselves and those around us. I actually encounter this a lot with the posts about how difficult it is for millennials, which I belong to as an '84 baby. Coming from a single income family in a semi-rural midwestern home as the second of four children, I managed to get a good, private college education with only $15k in loans, very little out of pocket expense, and a part-time campus job. 6 months after graduation I landed a job at a help desk making just north of $30k a year, got married, and bought a house at age 24 right as the recession was hitting in the summer of 2008. I held on to my job, got a couple of promotions, and managed to shift it into a professional career with a good salary and benefits. My modest home has appreciated in value, my loans are almost paid, and I'm trying to catch up to 401k savings goals. When I hear about how difficult my generation has it, I trust that the data I'm seeing is correct, but it's not the experience I lived here in central Indiana, or the experience my friends lived, or either of my younger siblings. I trust it exists, but it wasn't mine. Whether that's a testament to my luck, the diversity of experience within each generation, or a function of my specific geography, or all of the above, I don't know.

One thing I will say about the experience I detailed above is that I was, for a long time, highly unusual in terms of my age at the company I work for. My company made a significant effort to sustain its employees as much as it could through the recession (which also coincided with some very fraught patent-related timing for us), but with the net result that lots of the older employees got to full retirement age with an intact pension, but there were very few younger employees in the ranks. Now my company is experiencing major growing pains as the older generation starts to exit the workforce and is replaced by a younger set that lacks the institutional knowledge they would have learned through that experience.

In other words, I think a lot of the generational "split" isn't, at its core, about disputes as much as it's about a delayed handoff of the reins that would have occurred more gradually/organically had the financial crisis not happened.

I'd say it's a lot of luck, a touch regional (though I know a ton of people from Indiana who moved to either Denver or LA because the job market was fucked in the city or town they came from) and partially that you are old enough to have entered the job market prior to the recession. The fact that you already had a home prior to the recession is case and point to this. Or the fact that you got a private education while incurring less than 15k in debt. Or the fact that you were able to buy an house off a 30k a year salary because you had money before the recession hit and, thus, could take advantage of low property costs. In Denver that would currently require a 100k per year salary.

Of my close friends and family in two different states, my brother is one of only two millennials I know that own property and didnt require a shit ton of help from their parents to make it happen.

My world experiences could not be further from yours as somebody whose core friends graduated from college between 07 and 12'.
The story given by @RenegadeMonster or @Bull Shannon is the norm in most parts of this country for people under 35. I appreciate that you are willing to take a step back and acknowledge the data though.

@jaycee I know that the snarkier, more cynical side of me is prone to showing its face in this thread. And I fully agree that its important the left be united versus divided. But I also see it as virtually impossible for us to be united or for me to view anyone as a part of the same team who does not support policies like M4A, student debt relief, or some variation of a green new deal. Because the stakes I see around me are so high that anybody who is against those policies = the opposition regardless of whether their more socially liberal than a Trump supporter.

Maybe that makes me an asshole? I used to be really good at talking to people with opposing view points and finding empathy within our gaps. But now I just find myself frustrated that so many people of older generations seem incapable of seeing the problems that my community lives through.

Interestingly, that last paragraph is very applicable to minority communities and how they must feel towards white Americans. Which circles back to why it's so easy to divide us.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

'So If You're Poor, You're Dead'? Watch These Brits Gasp When They Find Out Cost of Healthcare in the United States

"The cost of American healthcare is literally unimaginable to most British people."

www.commondreams.org

 

[Indymisanthrope]

Prepayment penalties on auto loans? Whoa. I didn't know that was a thing. Prepayment penalties all but disappeared on mortgages for the last several years. This is a gross way to take advantage of people.

I wonder if this is related to the rise of the 6 year auto loan.

I've survived the majority of my life on vehicles that are over 100K miles. I just spent 4K on a car that has 120K miles on it. People should be more realistic about the cars they purchase. Buying a new car is a waste of money.

Hey, somebody's gotta put those first six figures on the odometer. Better somebody else than me.

The story given by @RenegadeMonster or @Bull Shannon is the norm in most parts of this country for people under 35.

This is the part that I guess I'm saying needs some scrutiny. My story wasn't to discount those of my peers but to illustrate the diversity of experience within an age group:
Is what you, Bull, & RM have experienced common? Sure.
Is it more common than in previous generations? Probably/maybe.
Is it the norm? That seems...untrue -- from here.
There are many, many people in our peer group doing just fine both within and without major urban areas. I know plenty of folks in the midwest who run the gamut from non-profit workers to teachers to doctors to accountants who live comparable lifestyles and own homes (albeit with admittedly varying levels of associated debt, at least in absolute figures -- income:debt ratio might tell a different story for each of them).

Geography and cost of living obviously play a major role. When I bought my house in late summer 2008, we were well past the failures of Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers. John McCain was about to announce that he was suspending his campaign to go back to the hill to participate in bailout hearings. It was just before the full extent of the subprime crisis became clear and credit lines became much harder to obtain. I got an FHA loan and made a down payment of something like $1500 on the house. So yeah, the timing was right. But, another 2-3 years and I could have done essentially the same thing in the Indianapolis area, no problem.

Maybe our society has anchored our idea of the generational breaks to the wrong historical pivot points. Maybe the real divide isn't about the internet, or 9/11, but about pre- vs. post-recession entry into the workforce. Through that prism, the start date for the 'recession' generation moves from ca. 1980 to about 1986, and suddenly puts the two of us in different categories. Seems silly, given that we have all the same cultural touchstones, but the circumstances in which we experienced them after the age of ~22 might be very different.

 

[Dtknuckles]

Hey, somebody's gotta put those first six figures on the odometer. Better somebody else than me.

And I have no problem taking advantage of their consumerism.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I wonder if this is related to the rise of the 6 year auto loan.

Maybe our society has anchored our idea of the generational breaks to the wrong historical pivot points. Maybe the real divide isn't about the internet, or 9/11, but about pre- vs. post-recession entry into the workforce. Through that prism, the start date for the 'recession' generation moves from ca. 1980 to about 1986, and suddenly puts the two of us in different categories. Seems silly, given that we have all the same cultural touchstones, but the circumstances in which we experienced them after the age of ~22 might be very different.

I've always said that generational mapping for our era is very difficult. Because on the one hand, if you are not able to remember America prior to 9/11, cell phones or the internet than I don't really think you are of the same generation as me culturally. Yet, I think you are dead on that politically people who entered the workforce during or after the recession have far more in common with me as it pertains to the adult experience than the oldest of millennials.

I wonder if this is related to the rise of the 6 year auto loan.

This is the part that I guess I'm saying needs some scrutiny. My story wasn't to discount those of my peers but to illustrate the diversity of experience within an age group:
Is what you, Bull, & RM have experienced common? Sure.
Is it more common than in previous generations? Probably/maybe.
Is it the norm? That seems...untrue -- from here.

According to this article, the average millennial makes roughly 35.5k per year. That's insane considering the modern cost of living. The net worth of Americans ages 18 to 35 has decreased by 34% since 1996, and 58% has less than 5k in savings despite ample evidence that millennials are more frugal than previous generations. Oh, and student debt for our generation is now bordering on 1.5 trillion for an average of 28k per person.

Millennials have an average of $28,000 in debt—and the biggest source isn't student loans

New data from Northwestern Mutual shows that education bills and student loans are not the leading source of debt among millennials.

www.cnbc.com

Meet the average American millennial, who has an $8,000 net worth, is delaying life milestones because of student-loan debt, and still relies on parents for money

The average American millennial is financially behind, facing a host of financial struggles that baby boomers didn't have to deal with.

www.businessinsider.com

Seems like economic struggle is the norm to me?

And as already discussed- the better the economy, the higher the cost of living. Like I may have just landed (literally just got off the phone of a 3rd interview that went well so fingers crossed) a job that will pay me 50k a year. That's 15k more than I've made in my life time. But that job is also predicated on staying in LA... where 50k is basically 25k in the middle of the country. And one of the main things they wanted assurances on was- LA is home for you, yes?

 

[Woob_woob]

I guess the only thing she couldnt lock up was the nomination?

 

[Indymisanthrope]

I've always said that generational mapping for our era is very difficult. Because on the one hand, if you are not able to remember America prior to 9/11, cell phones or the internet than I don't really think you are of the same generation as me culturally. Yet, I think you are dead on that politically people who entered the workforce during or after the recession have far more in common with me as it pertains to the adult experience than the oldest of millennials.



According to this article, the average millennial makes roughly 35.5k per year. That's insane considering the modern cost of living. The net worth of Americans ages 18 to 35 has decreased by 34% since 1996, and 58% has less than 5k in savings despite ample evidence that millennials are more frugal than previous generations. Oh, and student debt for our generation is now bordering on 1.5 trillion for an average of 28k per person.

Millennials have an average of $28,000 in debt—and the biggest source isn't student loans

New data from Northwestern Mutual shows that education bills and student loans are not the leading source of debt among millennials.

www.cnbc.com

Meet the average American millennial, who has an $8,000 net worth, is delaying life milestones because of student-loan debt, and still relies on parents for money

The average American millennial is financially behind, facing a host of financial struggles that baby boomers didn't have to deal with.

www.businessinsider.com

Seems like economic struggle is the norm to me?

Those two articles say quite different things. The CNBC article suggests that millennials are not living within their means and owe their struggle largely to personal, non-mortgage debt (an average of $28k, of which it specifically says the largest contributor is credit card debt, not student loans).

Meanwhile BI says millennials are frugal and that less than half of them even have student loan debt (but that the average among those people is quite high).

Also worth noting that by many measures of the generational break being from roughly 1980 - 2000, the 'average' millennial is still between the ages of 19 and 39. That means that the average salary of $35k/year is being brought down by students, people in entry-level positions, etc. (not sure how BI defined millennial for purposes of this study though).

Again, I agree with most of what you guys have said, and I'm not trying to diminish the experiences you've had. I do share that experience in several ways, despite the ways I've described it being different (I relate more to the CNBC description than to the BI analysis, myself). Just trying to recognize that a "generation" is a broad swath of people and you can slice the data in a million ways, but there will always be a vast variety of experience within that. And I think that contributes to the issues we see where people sort of roll their eyes about millennials in some instances. A lot of us are doing okay. Some of us are doing okay but it wouldn't take much to make us not okay. Others are one catastrophe away from total ruin.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

Those two articles say quite different things. The CNBC article suggests that millennials are not living within their means and owe their struggle largely to personal, non-mortgage debt (an average of $28k, of which it specifically says the largest contributor is credit card debt, not student loans).

Yes, but those millennials may not be living within their means due to the cost of living.

Based on what my rent is and what my salary is by the general deffiniton of living within your means I'm not living within means. Rent is just too high compared to my salary. And that high rent like I said caused me to build up credit card debt because I couldn't afford necessities or utilities my first year.

Talk to any "Boomer" and they will place fault with my financial struggles as being my own. Poor decisions and money management for living above my means. You don't want to know how many times I have been fold "find a roommate".

I have had bad experiences with roommates in the past. Never again.

 

[jaycee]

I'd say it's a lot of luck, a touch regional (though I know a ton of people from Indiana who moved to either Denver or LA because the job market was fucked in the city or town they came from) an

d partially that you are old enough to have entered the job market prior to the recession. The fact that you already had a home prior to the recession is case and point to this. Or the fact that you got a private education while incurring less than 15k in debt. Or the fact that you were able to buy an house off a 30k a year salary because you had money before the recession hit and, thus, could take advantage of low property costs. In Denver that would currently require a 100k per year salary.

Of my close friends and family in two different states, my brother is one of only two millennials I know that own property and didnt require a shit ton of help from their parents to make it happen.

My world experiences could not be further from yours as somebody whose core friends graduated from college between 07 and 12'.
The story given by @RenegadeMonster or @Bull Shannon is the norm in most parts of this country for people under 35. I appreciate that you are willing to take a step back and acknowledge the data though.

@jaycee I know that the snarkier, more cynical side of me is prone to showing its face in this thread. And I fully agree that its important the left be united versus divided. But I also see it as virtually impossible for us to be united or for me to view anyone as a part of the same team who does not support policies like M4A, student debt relief, or some variation of a green new deal. Because the stakes I see around me are so high that anybody who is against those policies = the opposition regardless of whether their more socially liberal than a Trump supporter.

Maybe that makes me an asshole? I used to be really good at talking to people with opposing view points and finding empathy within our gaps. But now I just find myself frustrated that so many people of older generations seem incapable of seeing the problems that my community lives through.

Interestingly, that last paragraph is very applicable to minority communities and how they must feel towards white Americans. Which circles back to why it's so easy to divide us.

My post wasn't about you per se. There was a post just before mine that was deleted that was less than educated imo.

I'm right with you on most of your points and I don't think you are an asshole for not wanting to interact with people that don't support the policies you feel are correct. I agree with you on most of those btw. I don't know if dismissing other people's dumb ideas as dumb is helpful or not. I'm too cynical to think that people's minds can be changed by anyone other than themselves, which is why I think that the propaganda that is present on various social media platforms has been incredibly effective.

A lot of what I consider to be false arguments around data (evidence) regarding why we should have this or that policy don't resonate with me. IMO it's a lot more straightforward than those arguments, which are often thinly veiled propaganda themselves. Either we chose to be a society who care about each and every person or we continue to be the America / global capitalists we all know so well. Either we want to be in competition with our neighbors for finite resources or we respect the resources and each other enough to be truly equitable.

I don't believe that any current candidate really wants these things, and even if they do, they can't do much to make it a reality by becoming president. I simultaneously recognize that something is better than nothing and hope that a few of the people who are still running would actually do some good if elected.... but for me I just hope that the people who are fighting about being left enough or whatever the fight is about actually identify their common problems - otherwise we will continue to do what we've always done - accept mediocrity at the expense of other humans

Those two articles say quite different things. The CNBC article suggests that millennials are not living within their means and owe their struggle largely to personal, non-mortgage debt (an average of $28k, of which it specifically says the largest contributor is credit card debt, not student loans).

Meanwhile BI says millennials are frugal and that less than half of them even have student loan debt (but that the average among those people is quite high).

Also worth noting that by many measures of the generational break being from roughly 1980 - 2000, the 'average' millennial is still between the ages of 19 and 39. That means that the average salary of $35k/year is being brought down by students, people in entry-level positions, etc. (not sure how BI defined millennial for purposes of this study though).

Again, I agree with most of what you guys have said, and I'm not trying to diminish the experiences you've had. I do share that experience in several ways, despite the ways I've described it being different (I relate more to the CNBC description than to the BI analysis, myself). Just trying to recognize that a "generation" is a broad swath of people and you can slice the data in a million ways, but there will always be a vast variety of experience within that. And I think that contributes to the issues we see where people sort of roll their eyes about millennials in some instances. A lot of us are doing okay. Some of us are doing okay but it wouldn't take much to make us not okay. Others are one catastrophe away from total ruin.

Right. There seems to be a lot of major assumptions at the root of these discussions / arguments. Primary among them that these generational classifications have some universal truths associated with them and the scientist in me is very suspicious of how representative population data is and how dependent it is on the researcher and the funding source.

I hope that it's been clear that I haven't been attempting to diminsh anyone's experience as well. My point has been that there is some exageration / hyperbole / dismissive opinions coming from all angles and that the discussion in and of itself isn't particularly helpful in explaining why the issues being described exist

Talk to any "Boomer" and they will place fault with my financial struggles as being my own. Poor decisions and money management for living above my means. You don't want to know how many times I have been fold "find a roommate".

I have had bad experiences with roommates in the past. Never again.

This is the problem with this discussion. "any Boomer" it's not true. The loudest people do not define the reality of everybody.

Also, there's some regionalism at play here because everyone I've ever met from the Boston area that wasn't under 40 has been a royal *insert nasty word or phrase here* - just personal experience and a small sample size talking here but I'll go with the evidence of my own observation - yes I recognize the irony in that statement

 

[Dtknuckles]

Yes, but those millennials may not be living within their means due to the cost of living.

Based on what my rent is and what my salary is by the general deffiniton of living within your means I'm not living within means. Rent is just too high compared to my salary. And that high rent like I said caused me to build up credit card debt because I couldn't afford necessities or utilities my first year.

Talk to any "Boomer" and they will place fault with my financial struggles as being my own. Poor decisions and money management for living above my means. You don't want to know how many times I have been fold "find a roommate".

I have had bad experiences with roommates in the past. Never again.

And if you would have stayed home with your parents to save money you would have been criticized for that.
I hate that criticism because it is very culturally loaded. My wife as well as many other Latin people I know never moved out until the were married. It just wasn't an option for them.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

And if you would have stayed home with your parents to save money you would have been criticized for that.
I hate that criticism because it is very culturally loaded. My wife as well as many other Latin people I know never moved out until the were married. It just wasn't an option for them.

I did move back in with my parents late 2014 and early 2015 when I was laid off and job hunting / traveling everywhere for interviews. However, living at home and not having my place would never have been an option.

When I moved back in the only contention between my mother and step father was that I was living at home. Even though I was paying a 1/3 of the bills. My step father who is a boomer, grew up where everyone moved out and where on their own by 18. The fact that I was living at home and an adult was the only point of contention between him and my mother. And it resulted in me getting an ultimatum of having to move out by so and so date. Luckily I found a job by then, but if I hadn't I would have been homeless.

 

[Dtknuckles]

I did move back in with my parents late 2014 and early 2015 when I was laid off and job hunting / traveling everywhere for interviews. However, living at home and not having my place would never have been an option.

When I moved back in the only contention between my mother and step father was that I was living at home. Even though I was paying a 1/3 of the bills. My step father who is a boomer, grew up where everyone moved out and where on their own by 18. The fact that I was living at home and an adult was the only point of contention between him and my mother. And it resulted in me getting an ultimatum of having to move out by so and so date. Luckily I found a job by then, but if I hadn't I would have been homeless.

He seems umm...unreasonable. Were you even living with them a year? And you were making efforts to find a job.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

He seems umm...unreasonable. Were you even living with them a year? And you were making efforts to find a job.

It was about a year. Yes I was making efforts to find a job. I travelled as far as MD and Chicago for Interviews. I was working random minimum wage jobs through a temp agency, worked seasonal for UPS for the Holidays as well as freelancing at the time. And like I said, I contributed 1/3 to the bills.

 

[jaycee]

I did move back in with my parents late 2014 and early 2015 when I was laid off and job hunting / traveling everywhere for interviews. However, living at home and not having my place would never have been an option.

When I moved back in the only contention between my mother and step father was that I was living at home. Even though I was paying a 1/3 of the bills. My step father who is a boomer, grew up where everyone moved out and where on their own by 18. The fact that I was living at home and an adult was the only point of contention between him and my mother. And it resulted in me getting an ultimatum of having to move out by so and so date. Luckily I found a job by then, but if I hadn't I would have been homeless.

Your step father isn’t very bright and in at least that instance is a complete asshole.

Im sorry that was your experience.

I grew up with similar expectations that were less than just.

I had to move back in for almost 2 years after college. I started off landscaping

 

[AnthonyI]

I did move back in with my parents late 2014 and early 2015 when I was laid off and job hunting / traveling everywhere for interviews. However, living at home and not having my place would never have been an option.

When I moved back in the only contention between my mother and step father was that I was living at home. Even though I was paying a 1/3 of the bills. My step father who is a boomer, grew up where everyone moved out and where on their own by 18. The fact that I was living at home and an adult was the only point of contention between him and my mother. And it resulted in me getting an ultimatum of having to move out by so and so date. Luckily I found a job by then, but if I hadn't I would have been homeless.

LOL, k, I know i've been touchy about the "Boomer" subject, so just to even the scale a tad, my son graduated college 2 1/2 years ago, got a job a couple of weeks before graduation at a pretty good starting pay. He wants to move to Texas but knows he needs to put in the time to get the experience. THIS boomer offered him this, and this stand for all 3 of my kids, you can live at home as long as your saving money and pitch in around the house. He pays for his own stuff and kicks in a little rent. I want him to chase his dream without going into debt to do it, if he's contributing and saving for his goal, why wouldn't I help him?

I can understand if living with your parents is an actual space problem or something like that, but I don't understand your step-fathers issue........and I'm a boomer. That being said, I know that the "Your out when your 18" mentality lingers past the boomer generation and I don't understand it from them either. As parents, aren't we here to try and give our kids, regardless of how old they are, the support and help they need to do better in life?

K, I'm done, it was a shit day so I needed a soap box for a bit.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

American computer expert spoke in North Korea about cryptocurrency, and now he's under arrest

Virgil Griffith's cryptocurrency talk at a North Korean conference violated U.S. sanctions, federal authorities allege

www.latimes.com

Bit Coin? Whatever the Cryptocurrency was one US citizen found himself in hot water for giving a speech / talk on Cryptocurrency in Pyongyang earlier this year. Apparently that speech violated U.S. Federal Sanctions against North Korea and the FBI arrested him.


Incredibly stupid nonetheless.

 

[Dtknuckles]

Considering our recent conversation

 

[jaycee]

Considering our recent conversation

R people supposed to believe that a Fordham degree (or any other for that matter) is going to pay for $200+K in debt in anything other than a lifetime. Absolutely ridiculous. The Board of Regeants are just as guilty Wall Street

 

[swamp]

Considering our recent conversation

Sadly, so much of the air in the room for these conversations is spent on folks affirming and absolving their own experience of being fortunate. The communication channel is one way only.

You had a better opportunity, you have more capital, and you have more volume in your megaphone. Thanks for sharing that...information...while we're discussing how a lot of us can't afford a home or a family...do I hug you now? Or give you a high five? Am I supposed to do anything else for you?

 

[jaycee]

Sadly, so much of the air in the room for these conversations is spent on folks affirming and absolving their own experience of being fortunate. The communication channel is one way only.

You had a better opportunity, you have more capital, and you have more volume in your megaphone. Thanks for sharing that...information...while we're discussing how a lot of us can't afford a home or a family...do I hug you now? Or give you a high five? Am I supposed to do anything else for you?

Could you expand on this?

I don't understand why it's in reference to that tweet exactly.