Political Discussion

DownIsTheNewUp said:
How about you read the article with actual data before whole sale dismissing it. I’ll pull more articles supporting it. It’s actually an excellent article too.

People believe it specifically because institutions you would likely deem more reputable than Salon have been pushing it as a narrative for 5 years. Look at how easy it was for you to dismiss what the data says— that white, straight men make up more of Bernie’s base in 2020 than young women and POC.

As to the Liz thing- it’s real but I’d argue (and so would many of my Warren supporting friends who are switching over to Bernie) that has more to do with frustration over the fact she is losing and her posioning the well with the “Bernie said a women can’t win” accusation.
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I think the article makes a mistake by conflating the concept that “Bernie Bros” don’t make up the majority of the base with the conclusion that therefore they don’t exist.
One need look no further than the Chapo Trap House dudes and their Twitter interactions to see just one example of this phenomenon. Supporters of leftist candidates don’t get much more caustic than that.
 
Vox and Vice are also problematic news outlets.

Like I said I hope what you're saying is accurate but given the number of people that support Bernie, let's just say it's a lot, it's hard to imagine how the "base" whatever that means is comprised of majority minority groups but this isn't the point anyway.

The angry crybaby white male identity associated with the Sanders campaign is real because people believe it and the campaign can point to whatever data they want about it being a conspiracy or a false narrative but people are still going to believe it... therefore it is real.

I think anyone that has ever gone onto reddit has seen examples of Bernie bullying and while it may not be fair to characterize Bernie's base as those jackasses they do exist and they have had a negative impact on the perception of Bernie and the Sanders campaign.

It may hurt the campaign to look in the mirror but it really really should
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I think the article makes a mistake by conflating the concept that “Bernie Bros” don’t make up the majority of the base with the conclusion that therefore they don’t exist.
One need look no further than the Chapo Trap House dudes and their Twitter interactions to see just one example of this phenomenon. Supporters of leftist candidates don’t get much more caustic than that.
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I agree that they exist here or there but a) the articles point is that the term Bernie Bro, by its very essence, erases his high support from both young females and young POC. It perpetuates the myth that the majority of his support comes from white men.

Furthermore- it pretends like other candidates don’t have toxic supporters. Or that Clinton didn’t have an army of venomous Twitter users.

Also, it is correct that the perception largely comes from Twitter. But that the demographics of Twitter are deeply skewed in a way that isn’t representative of the US, and essentially white wash his support to the eyes of pundants (who likely don’t know many Bernie supporters in the wealthy, elitist circles they often run in).

Lastly, is Shaun King a Bernie Bro? Or is he a BLM activist first and foremost who turned into a vocal supporter of Sanders? And if he is vocal about, say, his hatred of Bloomberg... does that hatred come from his place as a BLM leader or a Sanders supporter or both?

In other words, this shit isn’t black and white but the phrase Bernie Bro denotes a world painted only in those colors. More importantly, its function is as a weapon of the corporate media in combating Sanders momentum which means they don’t really care about where the truth of the matter lies.
 
jaycee said:
Vox and Vice are also problematic news outlets.

Like I said I hope what you're saying is accurate but given the number of people that support Bernie, let's just say it's a lot, it's hard to imagine how the "base" whatever that means is comprised of majority minority groups but this isn't the point anyway.

The angry crybaby white male identity associated with the Sanders campaign is real because people believe it and the campaign can point to whatever data they want about it being a conspiracy or a false narrative but people are still going to believe it... therefore it is real.

I think anyone that has ever gone onto reddit has seen examples of Bernie bullying and while it may not be fair to characterize Bernie's base as those jackasses they do exist and they have had a negative impact on the perception of Bernie and the Sanders campaign.

It may hurt the campaign to look in the mirror but it really really should
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Disregarding sources like Vice and Vox (which are no more problematic that WaPo) and the data within because it doesn’t fit the narrative you have grown to believe makes you no different than a Trump supporter. One can easily point to his polls numbers among Latinos and the numerous pieces published by places like NPR and Pod Saves America btw.

We agree that perception is more important than reality though.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Disregarding sources like Vice and Vox (which are no more problematic that WaPo) and the data within because it doesn’t fit the narrative you have grown to believe makes you no different than a Trump supporter. One can easily point to his polls numbers among Latinos and the numerous pieces published by places like NPR and Pod Saves America btw.

We agree that perception is more important than reality though.
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smh

I never defended the WaPo (so stop putting words in my mouth) but I do think there is a journalistic integrity at the New York Times that outlets like Vox or Vice or Salon are not putting into their quips for clicks. I also think you have a faith in polling data that I do not share.

You can get as bent out of shape about the reality as you want but toxic progressive white maleism (or Bernie Broness or whatever it's called) is real because people (at minimum) perceive it. Pretending like there aren't people out there shouting down anyone that says something negative about Bernie is a failure of the campaign and the candidate imo. I wish it didn't exist but it does and the campaign and especially the candidate would do better with the people that need convincing if it aggressively dismissed the toxic people that are making the most noise.

Your anger about this has been a point of contention here and I don't need to keep rehashing it with you. You're entitled to whatever your beliefs are. I've been trying to relay that the working class folks in the Midwest in my circle have an experience that is being dismissed (even by the good guys) and I suspect their votes are going to be needed in the general by whomever the Dem candidate is. I don't need a media outlet to tell me what I'm hearing from people is wrong.

Continuing to dismiss their experience and their perceptions is a mistake.
 
jaycee said:
smh

I never defended the WaPo (so stop putting words in my mouth) but I do think there is a journalistic integrity at the New York Times that outlets like Vox or Vice or Salon are not putting into their quips for clicks. I also think you have a faith in polling data that I do not share.

You can get as bent out of shape about the reality as you want but toxic progressive white maleism (or Bernie Broness or whatever it's called) is real because people (at minimum) perceive it. Pretending like there aren't people out there shouting down anyone that says something negative about Bernie is a failure of the campaign and the candidate imo. I wish it didn't exist but it does and the campaign and especially the candidate would do better with the people that need convincing if it aggressively dismissed the toxic people that are making the most noise.

Your anger about this has been a point of contention here and I don't need to keep rehashing it with you. You're entitled to whatever your beliefs are. I've been trying to relay that the working class folks in the Midwest in my circle have an experience that is being dismissed (even by the good guys) and I suspect their votes are going to be needed in the general by whomever the Dem candidate is. I don't need a media outlet to tell me what I'm hearing from people is wrong.

Continuing to dismiss their experience and their perceptions is a mistake.
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All fair. But I would also say that, I as an East LAer who has spent a ton of time in the ground in Neveda have seen first hand how his ground game is HEAVILY and proudly Latino. And that it’s only become more so that way since 2016. So again, I’m not dismissing that Bernie Bros exist. I’m annoyed by the denialism related to the diversity of his young base. And that my Latino friends (which constitutes probably 50% of my social circle) have a deep and building resentment in regards to that.

We can leave it at that until after Nevada which will provide hard, indisputable data.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
All fair. But I would also say that, I as an East LAer who has spent a ton of time in the ground in Neveda have seen first hand how his ground game is HEAVILY and proudly Latino. And that it’s only become more so that way since 2016. So again, I’m not dismissing that Bernie Bros exist. I’m annoyed by the denialism related to the diversity of his young base. And that my Latino friends (which constitutes probably 50% of my social circle) have a deep and building resentment in regards to that.

We can leave it at that until after Nevada which will provide hard, indisputable data.
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Yeah I get that but I don't understand comparing Nevada with any state that borders the Great Lakes.

I wasn't denying the diversity of his "young base" I think those are significant numbers of people but the young base in East LA or NV is not the same as the "young base" everywhere and the "base" (I legit do not fully understand what that means or if it means anything) where I'm at is going to need to be more inclusive come general election time.

I've also been saying there must be a lot of white people who support Sanders given the percentage of the electorate that seems to be supporting him. There are not more black and latino voters than white voters in the U.S. The number of latino voters in the districts you are in might be outnumbering white voters. That is obviously not the case for much of America.

I'm just cautioning that the swath of land from MN to PA is not NV and in many of these places there is a strong cultural component of pragmatism. I would argue that the pragmatism of Minnesotans is actually not all that pragmatic and rooted in inequality but the people here perceive themselves as pragmatic, get along types, that are not interested in drama. I think you can see how that self-identity could be in conflict with portrayals of the Sanders campaign. Further, the progressive selling points of diversity, multicultrualism, and social inclusion of a campaign matter less to white blue collar voters in the Midwest than it might in other places. Call it racism, or ignorance, or privilege or whatever but POC and other social minorities are not what most voters focus on in this part of the world. Those are often secondary or tertiary concerns for liberal folk.

At some point, there will need to be some collaboration / interaction with these local and regional cultural narratives if social ideals are going to become federal policies. I hate to label it this way but for lack of a better term at the moment "coastal ideals" do not match up well with how people (elsewhere) perceive themselves and their needs in other parts of the country, and that's something that regardless of the candidate and how progressive they are the Dems will need to contend with.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
a) the articles point is that the term Bernie Bro, by its very essence, erases his high support from both young females and young POC. It perpetuates the myth that the majority of his support comes from white men.
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The article posits that as an axiom, but I disagree with the premise. The term makes it easier to dismiss his supporters by using that term, but that doesn't mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist, which
DownIsTheNewUp said:
So again, I’m not dismissing that Bernie Bros exist.
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is where I think we agree. It's a squares/rectangles thing: not all Bernie supporters are BernieBros, but there are a number of loud, obnoxious bros who definitely go harder than hard for Bernie.
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Lastly, is Shaun King a Bernie Bro? Or is he a BLM activist first and foremost who turned into a vocal supporter of Sanders?
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Shaun King is his own third thing and I don't know what to make of him anymore. I used to think he was an underdog being smeared by hateful people; but the more criticism of him that I see, the more I wonder what is up with that guy. He may be what he says he is -- I hope he is -- but if we found out tomorrow that his whole deal is at least partially grift, then I'm not sure I would be surprised.
 
Dtknuckles said:
Careful now. You better not be considering Echo Park East LA. ;)
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I mean, historically it sort of is? Training Day literally takes place in West Lake / Silverlake. And Echo Park home owners are still predominantly Latino on my side. That said, no... I was more referring to my communities in Downey, Whittier and Commerce.

It’s also worth noting that I work for a vendor in the natural foods industry. And so my work life is heavily Latino too because they literally run that scene out here (particularity Whole Foods).
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
I mean, historically it sort of is? Training Day literally takes place in West Lake / Silverlake. And Echo Park home owners are still predominantly Latino on my side. That said, no... I was more referring to my communities in Downey, Whittier and Commerce.

It’s also worth noting that I work for a vendor in the natural foods industry. And so my work life is heavily Latino too because they literally run that scene out here (particularity Whole Foods).
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btw I lived in Upland, CA for 4 months a little over 20 years ago.

not anywhere near E. LA but on the far east side

Indymisanthrope said:
When I say "revolution!" You say "in moderation!"
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It's funny because it's true. smh. ;)
 
jaycee said:
It's funny because it's true ;)
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I think I've posted this here before, but one of my favorite professors was a Minnesotan descended from Norwegian Lutherans, and in my senior year we had a 4-student seminar class at this little bar on campus. He would never have more than one beer, except for the time he got plastered...and the next week he was back to one beer again. When somebody asked him about it, he said Minnesota's #1 life lesson is "Moderation, moderation, moderation, and not too much of that."
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
I mean, historically it sort of is? Training Day literally takes place in West Lake / Silverlake. And Echo Park home owners are still predominantly Latino on my side. That said, no... I was more referring to my communities in Downey, Whittier and Commerce.

It’s also worth noting that I work for a vendor in the natural foods industry. And so my work life is heavily Latino too because they literally run that scene out here (particularity Whole Foods).
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Boyle Heights is East LA. Ask the gangs from either neighborhood and they will say the same thing. While, Downey and the rest are east they are not part of LA City. Don't forget HP either.
 
Twentytwo said:
I am so tired of this shit, it never ends. Social Media will be our deaths.

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comparing medical records to birtherism is fucked-up.
and also there are people that would prefer Bernie appear incapable getting through a presidential term

both can be true

social media and really the way we all consume any media today is trying to cram everything into black and white / yes and no boxes.
when there is no room left nuance how much "truth" or "facts" do we really understand?
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I think I've posted this here before, but one of my favorite professors was a Minnesotan descended from Norwegian Lutherans, and in my senior year we had a 4-student seminar class at this little bar on campus. He would never have more than one beer, except for the time he got plastered...and the next week he was back to one beer again. When somebody asked him about it, he said Minnesota's #1 life lesson is "Moderation, moderation, moderation, and not too much of that."
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Oh God - I'm living inside of this professor's brain. It hurts. Somebody please let me out....

or at least send more beer
 
Dtknuckles said:
Boyle Heights is East LA. Ask the gangs from either neighborhood and they will say the same thing. While, Downey and the rest are east they are not part of LA City. Don't forget HP either.
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Yeah I absolutely feel you on that. But does one have to differentiate between “East Los” and East LA ;)

Because my friends who grew up in Montebello or Commerce would push back hard against idea that they didn’t grow up in East LA.

Either way, the way I meant it was more in regards tothe East side of the 101 aka the traditionally Hispanic neighborhoods and not the south central frame of reference that it’s also often associated with.
 
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