Political Discussion

No one person is going to bring about the kinds of seismic shifts our society needs. Not from the kind of person who thinks they deserve to be the president of 350 million people. And certainly not from anyone in 2020. But if I can't have that, I want a smart person who works hard and values other smart people that work hard. I want someone honest and humane, who recognizes that the challenges are bigger than they can overcome alone, but is still willing to chip away at them.

I mean, that's it. That's my wish list: smart, works hard, honest, humane. I don't even consider that settling. If we could get a good run of those people in a consecutive sequence, that'd be pretty good.
 
No one person is going to bring about the kinds of seismic shifts our society needs.

I mean, that's it. That's my wish list: smart, works hard, honest, humane. I don't even consider that settling. If we could get a good run of those people in a consecutive sequence, that'd be pretty good.

I agree with everything you say though I think policies are a vital piece of the puzzle because you can't fix anything without them. But I also want to point out that the *main* reason I support Bernie over Warren is that we need a president who values the grassroots base and will encourage it's growth. There is a reason his campaign slogan is "not me, us" and that he immediately set up Justice Democrats / Our Revolution... he realizes the importance of getting progressives into all levels of office. Obama was disappointing in many ways (while still being the best president of my lifetime), but the most frustrating aspect of his time in office was how he completely abandoned the organized and activist base that got him elected once he was President.

Any chance of these two being running mates at some point, you think?

What if Bernie picked a much younger running mate with similar political views (eg AOC or someone similar). I wonder if that would help persuade the ageists, etc. too bad they don’t typically announce running mates til much further along in the game.

I would love Warren as a VP pick for Bernie but I don't think it does enough to close the "old white person" problem. She'd be great in a cabinet position though. Similarly, I don't think Bernie makes sense as Warren's VP. He would make a good Secretary of Labor but we also need progressives in Senate in order to get things done.

My ideal pick for Bernie's VP would be Tulsi Gabbard. She would appeal to veterans, help even the gender gap and provide youth. Her policy positions are generally excellent, she's tough and honest and she would cement hope for real change in regards to the US's interventionalist tendencies. She has some (in my opinion) unfair baggage due to her parents / childhood, but I look forward to seeing what she adds at the debates. Nina Turner is another option for Bernie. Not sure who makes sense for Warren's VP should she advance though.
 
This is Bernie broism at its finest. You're making am implication that Warren doesn't want the same amount of progressives in office as Bernie or the same quality of progressives as Bernie based on nothing other than Bernie's slogan and some clubs he set-up. This is the problem.

If you have a real crtitique of Warren as not progressive enough based on the policy platforms you are intent on elevating to gospel or law by all means make them... but implying what Warren is about based on things Bernie says is a false argument

It's not that Warren won't. It's that I know that Bernie will because he has demonstrated as much since 2016 and makes it an active part of his messaging (where as Warren doesn't). And after cutting my teeth as a canvasser / phone banker / organizer for Obama (in 08') and watching him completely ignore us while in office, I'm a touch more jaded when it comes to the way Democrats treat the progressive base. I've alluded to the policies that trouble me with Warren (ala the fact that she is going to take corporate cash in the general, the fact that she has gone luke-warm in pushing for Medicare for All) and/or past actions (her silence on Standing Rock is a huge deal to me) while repeatedly saying that there is plenty to like and that she is hands down my 2nd option. My worst fear is that we get neither of them because they split the primary vote and hand us Biden.

You seem intent on picking a fight (i.e. repeatedly calling me a Bernie Bro). which is why I ignored your previous comment. I say-- these states in the Midwest look great for Bernie and then you counter with "the midwest in not monolithic"... I'm pretty sure that by saying places like MI/WI should be very kind to Bernie while acknowledging that he has no chance in a place like India (with it's hotbed of libertarianism) is the exact opposite of treating the middle of the country as monolithic.

Lastly, I view the ideological split as far more of a generational issue than one of geography or ethnicity. See the fact that more people my age view socialism favorably than capitalism. Or that more of us voted for Bernie than Trump or Clinton combined (and even when you combine them, the gap was large). Or the fact that when I graduated high school in 05, Colorado was a proudly libertarian state full of new money, upper middle class whites who were staunchly conservative. Since then, millenials from all over the Midwest have poured into the state much like kids from areas surrounding Illinois have done with Chicago. In that process the state has gone from deeply red to purple to safely blue. And not just blue, but progressive as all fuck blue. They just elected a the most progressive Governor in the nation specifically because a bunch of kids from Michigan, Ohio, New Mexico, Iowa, Minnesota, ext have flooded the state over the past 15 (and especially 10) years. Part of the rural/urban divide we are seeing actually stems from the fact the millenials have abandoned rural areas because the jobs are in cities (even if those cities are insanely expensive to live in).

Meanwhile, Jared Polis (who ran without taking money from corporate sources) has done more to shift paradigms than CA's collection of neoliberal hacks have done in my 14 years in CA. He was supposed to be the candidate that was too progressive, too jew, too gay to be electable. The guy who could win mayorship of Boulder but would fail in a statewide election. Yet he won comfortably. And since then, Pre-K funding, cementing 100% renewable on rapid timeline into law, decriminalized possession of hard drugs in small doses, reworked sex-ed curriculum and capped insulin prices have all become a reality. He just keeps getting shit done. And it's been like 7 months.

Also, should anybody want a breakdown in the differences between Warren and Sanders:

 
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But I also want to point out that the *main* reason I support Bernie over Warren is that we need a president who values the grassroots base and will encourage it's growth.


This is Bernie broism at its finest. You're making am implication that Warren doesn't want the same amount of progressives in office as Bernie or the same quality of progressives as Bernie based on nothing other than Bernie's slogan and some clubs he set-up. This is the problem.

If you have a real critique of Warren as not progressive enough based on the policy platforms you are intent on elevating to gospel or law by all means make them... but implying what Warren is about based on things Bernie says is a false argument

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here on this one jaycee. Bernie is the first person in recent history that has really understood that to over to cooperate rule is that you need to develop grassroots communities that get out and vote. I don't think thats Bernie Bro-ism.
 
I didn't say Bernie was broism - just the argument was.


I don't think his argument is. He is noting that the reason why he supports Bernie is that he has built a movement around his policies that will last past his time in the sun. Warren hasn't built any infrastructure like that. For me that is a good reason to give Bernie my vote over the two.
 
and that he immediately set up Justice Democrats / Our Revolution... he realizes the importance of getting progressives into all levels of office.


Has Warren set up anything like Justice Democrats? Has she used her support network to get other progressives around the country elected (AOC plus a host of other DAs and other recently elected officials)? She has not set up a movement. She may be progressive, but she has not really created power structures other than her campaign. That's important, especially if you don't want the rock to roll back down the hill.
 
Also if you read my post again I said the Midwest is not monolithic - thanks.

I know that's what you said. My point is that by saying that- you were implying that I believed (or had indicated) otherwise. And I don't/didn't.

It's not bro-ism to point out that the center of Bernie's campaign is the idea of a movement.. Especially when I pointed to 2 organizations that his campaign helped set up and have talked about the number of people I know who took said message to heart after 2016 and have been involved in politics on various levels since then. And no, Warren has not come close to using the same kind of messaging when it comes to pushing neoliberal democrats out of office. Nor when it comes to building a campaign that avoids the pratfalls of corporate cash so as to not be indebted to them.

I have treated this entire conversation as one that is deeply nuanced and have repeatedly praised Warren (while you started this whole convo with heavy dose of none-of-these-candidates-are-worth-a-damn generalities). I never insinuated she hasn't been fighting economic inequality or that she won't once in office. I have questioned whether her approach is too single minded (on regulation) and criticized certain policy stances.

And where did I say it was a good thing that youth is leaving rural areas? I didn't. In fact, my post includes a sentence on the fact that the urban/rural divide was being worsened by it. My point was that people under 35 are very, very liberal regardless of whether they are from the coast or the Midwest... and that the ideological gap is mostly a generational one.
 
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Why would WI vote for Bernie? Why would MI vote for Bernie? Polls are not evidence. Read my post again about social-democratism and how that means something different culturally in the Midwest.

Because he is pro-unions and anti-free trade. Because he talks about the need for a living wage. Because he openly talks about the need to fight big agriculture and support small farmers. Because his version of going green prioritizes places like WV (where he won big over Clinton in 16') and making sure green jobs / retraining filters into those communities. Because he has an entire portion of his platform dedicated to "revitalizing rural America".


The word socialism might be problematic in portions of the midwest, but the policies themselves are popular. And (based off the many Nevadans I spoke to in the rural, northern portion of the state- which is the portion of the state that he did very well in) a lot of people find him authentic and true to his word even if they don't like the word socialism.
 
I'm just gonna throw a link to this book up here for anyone that might be interested. Because while I am also over this particular conversation, the term neoliberalism is most certainly not just a media buzzword (ala libtard), it's a political ideology of the center. One of privatization, deregulation, globalization and for-profit wars that has dominated western politics for 40+ years.

 
Interesting interview with one of the women who accused Joe Biden of sexual harassment tonight on the Nightly News.

Basically, the women says Joe Biden truly does not understand what sexual harassment is. He grew up in a different time and what he did would have been acceptable / wouldn't have been sexual harassment 30 to 40 years ago in the work place. She believes he's answering the questions as he believes the truth to be. But times have changed and you can't do certain things anymore.

Because of that, she is not bothered by Joe Biden denying that he did anything wrong publicly. She said she would even still vote for him if the 2020 election was between Biden and Trump.
 
I hate the financial institutions of America.

I know Bank of America was sued for this and had to make a payout recently.

Banks process debits before credits to maximize fees.

Last night all my auto payments were taken out of my bank account prior to them crediting my direct deposit. Result, 3 NSF fees of $35 for a total of $105.

Calling them and bitching went no where. They were like you didn't have the funds in your account plain and simple. Everything went in and out at 12:00 am. So why should I be on the hook if they took the money out for my auto payments before they put the money in from my direct deposit / paycheck.
 
I'm just gonna throw up this .gif for anyone who wants a smile..

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This is my stance on 2020.

There are qualities in each candidate I like, and qualities in each I dislike. That being said, I still haven’t decided who I’m “all in” for. I’m pretty sure it won’t be Bernie or Biden....I have my reasons, which, IMO, is irrelevant to my bigger point, which is whomever is THE candidate will get my 100% support. Yes, I want that candidate to be the one who has the best chance of beating DJT.

I live in deep red Montana. I have farily progressive ideals, but that doesn’t mean that’s what Montana wants. Last November I had a candidate running for Senate I really liked, but felt she was too progressive. If I wanted a Dem to get that seat, we needed to get vote of the Republican who didn’t like DJT, and someone too progressive wouldn’t pull them over and get their vote. Lo and behold, Kathleen Williams won the primary against two candidates I thought COULD beat Gianforte, and like I predicted, lost the election. If one of the more middle-of-the-road democratic men had won the primary, I firmly believe he would have beat Gianforte.

If it’s Biden, so be it. If it’s Bernie, so be it. Tearing other candidates down is counterproductive to the larger cause.
 
If I were in your shoes in MT I might feel differently - you're in a difficult spot and have an interesting story to tell.

I'm tired of settling for elect-ability. I'm guessing @DownIsTheNewUp agrees with me on that point at least :whistle:. Biden is scummy and I would feel like I was throwing my vote away to vote for him. I would feel less ill about voting for any other dem candidate.

We need to be able to be critical of candidates so that we can make the most informed decision. We need to be just as critical of the person we are pulling for as the opponents.
I agree with you to a point. If I had my way, we’d have free health care, free education, far stricter gun regulations, Citizens’ United would be repealed, and women could do whatever the fuck they wanted with their bodies. Unfortunately, I have to realize that I *may* have to make concessions in order to take the power back from the GOP. I would LOVE it if my Republican-but-Trump-hating relatives/MT neighbors would vote for any of the Dem nominees, but if Warren wins the nom, I just don’t see that happening. DJT has done such a good job demonizing her that If Warren wins the nom, I firmly believe Trump wins again. (Not sure about that scenario with Bernie). However, if a more moderate candidate wins, I believe Dems win in 2020. I sincerely wish I was wrong, I’m certainly not all gung ho for Biden.....but if he wins the nom, you bet your ass he gets my vote.
 
I agree with you to a point. If I had my way, we’d have free health care, free education, far stricter gun regulations, Citizens’ United would be repealed, and women could do whatever the fuck they wanted with their bodies. Unfortunately, I have to realize that I *may* have to make concessions in order to take the power back from the GOP. I would LOVE it if my Republican-but-Trump-hating relatives/MT neighbors would vote for any of the Dem nominees, but if Warren wins the nom, I just don’t see that happening. DJT has done such a good job demonizing her that If Warren wins the nom, I firmly believe Trump wins again. (Not sure about that scenario with Bernie). However, if a more moderate candidate wins, I believe Dems win in 2020. I sincerely wish I was wrong, I’m certainly not all gung ho for Biden.....but if he wins the nom, you bet your ass he gets my vote.

This is the argument that was handed to me by Clinton supporters in 2016. And by Kerry supporters in 04.

How'd that work out again?

Meanwhile that same argument was (as I mentioned elsewhere) used against Jared Polis' in the primaries for Governor. Pretty sure he won the general by double digits and has gotten more done (as it pertains to real change) for the state in 7 months than the the 2 previous (centrist) Governors got done in their entire terms.
 
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