Political Discussion

Tyr said:
This. I think we as a species, definitely the USA as well, have historically been focused on things that only benefit ourselves. I know there has always been a small contingent that has sought solutions for the good of the country/society/humanity and I'd love to see that become more of the norm in modern-day thought and discussion.

It is always a convo stopper as well when discussing policy with friends/colleagues.
"So you're saying that you want X to happen because its good for you even though it would be bad for the majority of people?"
"Well yeah"
"That seems fairly selfish. Don't you want things that help everyone?"
"......."
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I would say that teaching the importance of individual accountability DOES benefit the exact country/society/humanity that you are referring to. It’s that whole “teach a man man to fish” thing. I believe there exists a world where accountability and access do not need to be at odds with each other.

I will teach my kid to look both ways before crossing the road AND yell at the bastard that almost hits him when he’s driving while texting, and I’ll do it while also advocating for texting while driving be illegal. I’m not going to place the entirety of the blame on the driver, my kid knows the rules of crossing the street.

There exists a responsibility between both the individual and the society. To ignore individual responsibility is disadvantageous to a society.
 
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Tys1 said:
I would say that teaching the importance of individual accountability DOES benefit the exact country/society/humanity that you are referring to. It’s that whole “teach a man man to fish” thing. I believe there exists a world where accountability and access do not need to be at odds with each other.

I will teach my kid to look both ways before crossing the road AND yell at the bastard that almost hits him when he’s driving while texting, and I’ll do it while also advocating for texting while driving be illegal. I’m not going to place the entirety of the blame on the driver, my kids knows the rules of crossing the street.

There exists a responsibility between both the individual and the society. To ignore individual responsibility is disadvantageous to a society.
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I may have misstated my position as that was not the intent of my original post.

I agree with you, personal responsibility and accountability are integral parts of being a good and productive human IMO. What I was stating is that people that vote for/support people, positions, or policies solely for their own personal gain have been historically the norm. I'd like to see a departure from that.
 
Tys1 said:
I would say that teaching the importance of individual accountability DOES benefit the exact country/society/humanity that you are referring to. It’s that whole “teach a man man to fish” thing. I believe there exists a world where accountability and access do not need to be at odds with each other.

I will teach my kid to look both ways before crossing the road AND yell at the bastard that almost hits him when he’s driving while texting, and I’ll do it while also advocating for texting while driving be illegal. I’m not going to place some blame on the driver, my kids knows the rules of crossing the street.

There exists a responsibility between both the individual and the society. To ignore individual responsibility is disadvantageous to a society.
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But the system is broken. To take your analogy to the next level the way the American corporate system currently works is thus:

Your child stands on the pavement. Looks left and right. Sees a speeding car, cautiously steps back further into the pavement. The sleeeding car with the texting driver mounts the pavement, mows him down and carries on along his way. The driver is not prosecuted. His text was economically vital and so he is entitled to monetarily compensate you as a parent for your loss without criminal penalty as he is generating wealth.

Individual accountability has not existed in our economic system for more than 40 years, it has been replaced by individualism which is absolutely not the same thing.
 
Joe Mac said:
But the system is broken. To take your analogy to the next level the way the American corporate system currently works is thus:

Your child stands on the pavement. Looks left and right. Sees a speeding car, cautiously steps back further into the pavement. The sleeeding car with the texting driver mounts the pavement, mows him down and carries on along his way. The driver is not prosecuted. His text was economically vital and so he is entitled to monetarily compensate you as a parent for your loss without criminal penalty as he is generating wealth.

Individual accountability has not existed in our economic system for more than 40 years, it has been replaced by individualism which is absolutely not the same thing.
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1000000% it’s fucked. Completely fucked. I just want the focus to be on making sure all kids have shoes on their feet first and that what waits for them on the other side of the street isn’t going to lynch them. Fuck who’s at blame. Let’s accept accountability for our agreed upon contract and instead ensure a better chance for all future children to safely cross this dangerous road of life.
 
Tys1 said:
1000000% it’s fucked. Completely fucked. I just want the focus to be on making sure all kids have shoes on their feet first and that what waits for them on the other side of the street isn’t going to lynch them. Fuck who’s at blame. Let’s accept accountability for our agreed upon contract and instead ensure a better chance for all future children to safely cross this dangerous road of life.
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The problem is that the system is so badly rigged. We believe that there isn’t enough pie to go around there is. It isn’t a case of just settling for that. There is scope to dream and there is money for kids to seek as much education as possible. It’s just all concentrated in an ever decreasing number of individuals and mega corporations. We teach individual responsibility to the kid who goes to university to better themselves and ends up with unsustainable levels of debt by trying to do the right thing. Through the criminal justice system we teach brutal individual responsibility to the lowest and most desperate in society. Yet we allow a certain sect to get richer and richer whilst abrogating all individual responsibility.
 
Joe Mac said:
The problem is that the system is so badly rigged. We believe that there isn’t enough pie to go around there is. It isn’t a case of just settling for that. There is scope to dream and there is money for kids to seek as much education as possible. It’s just all concentrated in an ever decreasing number of individuals and mega corporations. We teach individual responsibility to the kid who goes to university to better themselves and ends up with unsustainable levels of debt by trying to do the right thing. Through the criminal justice system we teach brutal individual responsibility to the lowest and most desperate in society. Yet we allow a certain sect to get richer and richer whilst abrogating all individual responsibility.
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Bingo! Our justice systems are not impartial when comparing class hierarchies. This is a major issue. Also, for those in the US, Citizens United means that those mega corporations (and mega individuals) are then allowed to buy the government that makes the rules. There’s no way to win under the current rules, they must be broken.... eventually they will be.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Why not give him one first, then teach him? We learn better with full bellies.
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Sure, I’m all for it!

I just don’t want him to agree to pay $5 for lessons and then ask for his money back when he doesn’t land the state bass record the following year.
 
far too many leaders and members of the general public believe that poverty (and debt) are questions of irresponsibility and laziness. we can't teach a man to fish while ignoring why they may need to be taught- there is an unequal distribution of wealth and resources.

we are the same society that has made criminal justice focused on punishment instead of reform, so I don't really trust our fucked up imbalanced system to teach financial lessons and life choices. and as far as fixing things for the future while refusing to help the future's parents? seems like we are only creating more potential problems, and abdicating our responsibility to restructure society now.

history shows that empowering folks and giving them what they need to not be in desperate scenarios (or depressing and crippling student debt) doesn't hurt society by helping them shirk responsibility- it leads to better opportunities for the whole. sure, a few might skate by and not understand their lessons of debt, but not most. focusing only on the individual responsibility of nearly $2 trillion in student debt is overlooking the complexity of issue.
 
I can agree with 95% of the issues discussed in here and feel like we’re much more on the same page then the perception that’s being cast. My sentiment on a specific issue is starting to get painted with a very broad brush and lines are getting blurred past that of reality. If student debt forgiveness is the ticket to equality and fairness for the masses then give me a ticket! (I’ll pay you back later, promise)
 
Tys1 said:
I can agree with 95% of the issues discussed in here and feel like we’re much more on the same page then the perception that’s being cast. My sentiment on a specific issue is starting to get painted with a very broad brush and lines are getting blurred past that of reality. If student debt forgiveness is the ticket to equality and fairness for the masses then give me a ticket! (I’ll pay you back later, promise)
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sorry if anything I said came across as an attack, and I'm confident in saying none of the others are trying to take you on. I enjoy the discussion in here and respect your point of view on this topic. sometimes these discussions don't really get to happen and we feed an echo chamber if none of us disagree, and I know that people can unfortunately feel pushed out.

I mean, I still definitely disagree with you on this particular subject 😄 but I'm not putting you in a box, nor do I feel any ill will towards your perspective.
 
bfly said:
sorry if anything I said came across as an attack, and I'm confident in saying none of the others are trying to take you on. I enjoy the discussion in here and respect your point of view on this topic. sometimes these discussions don't really get to happen and we feed an echo chamber if none of us disagree, and I know that people can unfortunately feel pushed out.

I mean, I still definitely disagree with you on this particular subject 😄 but I'm not putting you in a box, nor do I feel any ill will towards your perspective.
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Awww, I appreciate you saying that! I certainly don’t intend on leaving as I too feel that it’s far too easy to push people away into smaller and smaller echo chambers. This idea of an echo chamber is prevalent in every place where social circles combine with digital platforms and it’s certainly not exclusive to politics! It’s increasingly difficult in today’s age to think critically and develop ones own ideals. I wish there was a wider range of opinion in this thread because willingness to communicate with opposing opinion is wildly undervalued. That said, I think I’ve exhausted my will to continue this topic and see it as a dead wire not worth further troubleshooting. We disagree, that’s cool. I still respect the shit out of you all.
 
bfly said:
far too many leaders and members of the general public believe that poverty (and debt) are questions of irresponsibility and laziness. we can't teach a man to fish while ignoring why they may need to be taught- there is an unequal distribution of wealth and resources.

we are the same society that has made criminal justice focused on punishment instead of reform, so I don't really trust our fucked up imbalanced system to teach financial lessons and life choices. and as far as fixing things for the future while refusing to help the future's parents? seems like we are only creating more potential problems, and abdicating our responsibility to restructure society now.

history shows that empowering folks and giving them what they need to not be in desperate scenarios (or depressing and crippling student debt) doesn't hurt society by helping them shirk responsibility- it leads to better opportunities for the whole. sure, a few might skate by and not understand their lessons of debt, but not most. focusing only on the individual responsibility of nearly $2 trillion in student debt is overlooking the complexity of issue.
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I wonder how much value is created by giving support even if a certain percentage are those don’t really take advantage of it. There has to be a tipping point as to how much is positive for a society. For all the waste that happens I’m sure a few people double the value they give back to society and make up for the waste. I don’t really have problems with that.

Another thing that I think that people don’t take into account that I am particularly sensitive to because I work in education is that Children are wholly dependent on adults for their needs. A child who grows up in a more stable household has more of a chance of becoming productive. I’m f we have to provide support to that family despite the adult is less than responsible I’m totally ok with that.

it’s funny we are talking about this because @Joe Mac watching The Crown on Netflix and I am firmly in the Thacher years. They show her as a very heartless and cold towards the less than fortunate.
 
Dtknuckles said:
I wonder how much value is created by giving support even if a certain percentage are those don’t really take advantage of it. There has to be a tipping point as to how much is positive for a society. For all the waste that happens I’m sure a few people double the value they give back to society and make up for the waste. I don’t really have problems with that.

Another thing that I think that people don’t take into account that I am particularly sensitive to because I work in education is that Children are wholly dependent on adults for their needs. A child who grows up in a more stable household has more of a chance of becoming productive. I’m f we have to provide support to that family despite the adult is less than responsible I’m totally ok with that.

it’s funny we are talking about this because @Joe Mac watching The Crown on Netflix and I am firmly in the Thacher years. They show her as a very heartless and cold towards the less than fortunate.
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Erm when you get to the miners strike that is where I am from and roughly around when I was born. I hope that evil witch is burning right now.
 
Dtknuckles said:
Im not sure if they get to that. Right now it is the tiff over South African sanctions.
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If they go through the 80s without covering the miners strike then that is an odd editorial decision. That said historical accuracy is absolutely not a virtue of that show.
 
Joe Mac said:
If they go through the 80s without covering the miners strike then that is an odd editorial decision. That said historical accuracy is absolutely not a virtue of that show.
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i believe the Troubles and the hunger strike are not much in focus either.....
so, historic accuracy is definitely not the primary focus of the series
 
panino said:
i believe the Troubles and the hunger strike are not much in focus either.....
so, historic accuracy is definitely not the primary focus of the series
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Yep the troubles are Mountbatten getting blown up from what I gather and the British soldiers are wonderful. No proper mention of Bloody Sunday the decade before or the hunger strikes.
 
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