Political Discussion

Curious how the commutation of Blagojevich will go over with the rural republicans in Illinois.

They HATED the guy - He was a democrat and from Chicago.

Now to see him get out is a slap in their face. I don't see Trump winning over anyone here.
 
Twentytwo said:
Trix may be for kids, but America is for rich white elites.
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America is founded on the principle that some lives, white landowning males, are more valuable than other lives.

Capitalism is a set of tools that are used to perpetuate those principles.

Religions are dangerous systems of thought that places humans (usually straight men) above all other life forms.

Globalism is the perpetuation of market-based organized crime that promotes the principles America was founded upon....
some people (and places) must be injured so that others can get what they want.
 
ayayrawn said:
"Blue no matter who" is a disengagement campaign meant to turn enthusiastic voters into resigned box checkers, and I refuse to fall for it.
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I interpret "Blue no matter who" as "don't forget that the President nominates Supreme Court Justices." Most of any administration's policies can be course-corrected, but a lifetime seat in the court impacts a generation.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I listened to the second one of these over the weekend. I wish they had spent more time on Ryan Grim’s tweet, both as a strategic device (the “why did he tweet this NOW?” question, which they discussed a little) and about how true it actually is. So much of the turmoil right now is about centrism vs. progressivism, and electability, and not about how a policy agenda will actually work. If Bernie has a plan for his agenda, great, we should be talking more about it; but if Grim is just saying the quiet parts out loud here, then what’s the point, y’know? I don’t say that as a knock against Bernie, but it’s a part of the conversation that I think we need to have. The election is the first step, not the finish line, and the primary makes us lose sight of that.
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As somebody who has seen Grim speak in person at a well known activists house last fall, I can confirm Liz’s remark that he is a Warren guy who prefers Bernie to centrists.

But as I’ve said elsewhere in this thread, I think most Bernie supporters who are actually down in the trenches realize that while Bernie has a clear plan of action to get things like student debt and marijuana legalization through... in regards to others, it’s about starting the negotiations on the far left instead of the Obama tactic of starting in the center and getting dragged right by Republicans. And then of course, there is the firm belief that Bernie is step one in reforming the DNC (via a new chair and cabinet) and that we fully realize local elections of all sorts are going to have to be dug into. We also believe Sanders will provide a guiding hand to activists and transparent focalization of the opposition. Ie the exact opposite of Obama.
 
bettim84 said:
I interpret "Blue no matter who" as "don't forget that the President nominates Supreme Court Justices." Most of any administration's policies can be course-corrected, but a lifetime seat in the court impacts a generation.
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Unfortunately the Merrick Garland fiasco established a new precedent in stonewalling nominees if the president belongs to the opposing party of the majority leader.

Also unfortunately, the right will weaponize the Brett Kavanaugh fiasco as a precedent for trying to smear any nominees from a Democrat in retribution. The next nominee had better be utterly spotless, and even then, as a terrible man once said, that nominee is "going to go through some things."
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
I think most Bernie activists realize that while Bernie has a clear plan of action to get things like student debt and marijuana legalization through... in regards to others, it’s about starting the negotiations on the far left instead of the Obama tactic of starting in the center and getting dragged right by Republicans.
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Yeah, I agree with you that I think activists understand this. My concern is that part of the pitch to voters is that he can make these things actually happen.

It's not a problem with Bernie, per se. It's just a tough political needle to thread. How do you protect yourself from disappointing the electorate without tipping your hand that you're just staking out a position for the start of negotiations?
 
Indymisanthrope said:
Yeah, I agree with you that I think activists understand this. My concern is that part of the pitch to voters is that he can make these things actually happen.

It's not a problem with Bernie, per se. It's just a tough political needle to thread. How do you protect yourself from disappointing the electorate without tipping your hand that you're just staking out a position for the start of negotiations?
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I agree it will be difficult. He is going to have the entire establishment lined up against him should he win. But as I sort of alluded to, I think the key is that he will be very transparent with America while in office and orchestrating pressure via grassroots organizing. “Are you angry that they won’t pass X”— points finger at various Dems— lets make it clear they must change their stance or we will vote them out. That’s the way I’ve always interpreted “us not me” and it’s backed up in the way he functioned as mayor.

Meanwhile, the things he can get done via executive action and the such (Daca, marijuana, student debt) or lead by example internationally (climate change, foreign policy) should be more than enough to appease his base in the short term.
 
jaycee said:
Most of the pro Bloomberg types I know are POC older than 40.

White straight males are less impacted regardless of who is in office.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not the Sanders campaign specifically has taken on an attitude of young white males that have the privilege to say if we don't get our way we are bailing out of the political process. I'm not saying this is your personal attitude nor that of the candidate. There are many many many very liberal even progressive people that are taking the attitude that was expressed here yesterday that if we don't get our way then we are going to take our toys and go home. This attitude, regardless of the evils perpetuated by neoliberalism, is one of privilege. I hope that progressive people figure it out that throwing the baby out with the bath water is a pointless endeavor that does more harm than good.

Again, I voted for Bernie in my state's primary because the policies most closely align with what I feel is best for people as a whole, but the campaign has turned many people off here in MN and I assume in other parts of the Midwest. Maybe this doesn't matter if enough young folks turn-out and maybe if Bernie becomes the candidate some of the fears people have about him will fade.... BUT the primarily young white male progressive tears (aka threats of not voting) that are getting thrown around here and other places online are ignoring the privilege that comes with their tailwind. They will be OK, physically, whether or not Trump is in office. The same can not be said for other people.

No one should accept a Bloomberg candidacy as anything other than what it is. No one should stop being critical of the money in the left and all of the evil it perpetuates, but if you are a straight white male you have a moral obligation to be an ally, even if that means eating a turd sandwich before you take your toys home and go play by yourself.
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Except, again, Bernie’s base in actually made up mostly of young people of color / young females. White, straight men are the least likely to be supporting him of people under 40. Or so says the data. So perhaps the interpretation should be that there is a huge generational gap that has to do with the plethora of issues facing young people that older whites are insulated from.

www.salon.com

“Bernie Bro” myth persists because pundits don’t understand Twitter

A misunderstanding of social media psychology is driving media elites to keep pushing an easily disprovable stereotype
www.salon.com www.salon.com
 
LeeVing said:
Curious how the commutation of Blagojevich will go over with the rural republicans in Illinois.

They HATED the guy - He was a democrat and from Chicago.

Now to see him get out is a slap in their face. I don't see Trump winning over anyone here.
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Trump was a Democrat from New York City...

TBH, most MAGA’s I know from back home will love it because it a thumb in the eye to liberals. Pardon the corrupt democratic governor to own the libs. Owning the libs is more important than any abject policy.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Except, again, Bernie’s base in actually made up mostly of young people of color / young females. White men are the least likely to be supporting him of people under 40. Or so says the data. So perhaps the interpretation should be that there is a huge generational gap that has to do with the plethora of issues facing young people that older whites are insulated from.

www.salon.com

“Bernie Bro” myth persists because pundits don’t understand Twitter

A misunderstanding of social media psychology is driving media elites to keep pushing an easily disprovable stereotype
www.salon.com www.salon.com
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Yeah, I don't know how that could possibly be completely factual. I'm sure the base is there as you describe but given the wide support of the campaign (Bernie is ahead if we're talking about some polling data) that the "base" could be primarily POC seems not to be true. The numbers just wouldn't add up... but I do hope I'm wrong about those assumptions....

Maybe it's equally valid to say that the noisiest people who are often online and being eschewed forward by the media are the bullying progressive white males I'm describing. Either way. It's turned people off.

I was just getting coffee with a very progressive female colleague who is 31, who was discussing this very issue and how she has been completely turned off of supporting Sanders because of it. She is an undecided voter who would probably vote for Liz if Liz were on the ballot. So regardless of the "majority" argument the noise that has been made evident to people is something that is negative and imo Bernie would do well to speak out against forcefully and often.... but maybe he doesn't have to or want to.

Also Salon is not a reputable journalism outlet. Nor is USAToday.
The Bernie Bro myth is true if people believe it.... and they do.
 
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LeeVing said:
We vote by mail here in Oregon...I love it compared to when I lived in Illinois.
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TenderLovingKiller® said:
Same in Washington State, way better than IL. You get time to actually read and research what and who you are voting for. Though, I miss the “I Voted” sticker. I like to proudly display the completion of my civic duty.
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These are better systems. I lived in Oregon and miss the way they do it. Someone here made an argument about fraud and mail in ballots which I'm sure has some validity but I would argue that mail in makes it far more difficult to suppress the vote and the effort required to have a widespread mail in voter fraud campaign seems very unlikely when you think about the steps necessary to have a single or even 100 persons vote counted in multiple municipalities.

Voters might be more informed on average in mail in states too.
 
Ear Wax said:
I find this whole pardoning business distasteful, whoever has done it. Seems like Presidents on their way out have felt obliged to do it. If some miscarriage of justice has occurred, point it out and let the courts decide on a remedy. This stuff trump is pulling is banana republic type shit.
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I'm not against it. For example, when people had their sentences communed for minor drug infractions and got life in jail.

When used properly and to fix wrongs I support it. Trump is not doing this. And I don't support his pardons and communes what so ever.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Except, again, Bernie’s base in actually made up mostly of young people of color / young females. White, straight men are the least likely to be supporting him of people under 40. Or so says the data. So perhaps the interpretation should be that there is a huge generational gap that has to do with the plethora of issues facing young people that older whites are insulated from.

www.salon.com

“Bernie Bro” myth persists because pundits don’t understand Twitter

A misunderstanding of social media psychology is driving media elites to keep pushing an easily disprovable stereotype
www.salon.com www.salon.com
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Thanks for sharing the article. I didn't realize BernieBros was sticking around as much as it is. Never really looking into the meaning behind the name either.

Also, can't say I'm surprised they like to picture Bernies base as entitled white millennials.
 
Ear Wax said:
I find this whole pardoning business distasteful, whoever has done it. Seems like Presidents on their way out have felt obliged to do it. If some miscarriage of justice has occurred, point it out and let the courts decide on a remedy. This stuff trump is pulling is banana republic type shit.
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RenegadeMonster said:
I'm not against it. For example, when people had their sentences communed for minor drug infractions and got life in jail.

When used properly and to fix wrongs I support it. Trump is not doing this. And I don't support his pardons and communes what so ever.
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There are legitimate arguments that the presidential pardon power should really be used a LOT MORE than it is today. If clemency isn’t available through the courts for various reasons, it should be available through other means. Presidents just aren’t willing to take on that sort of electoral risk because of fears of recidivism and appearing soft on crime (see: Horton, Willie).

Using it as a political favor was never supposed to be the point.
 
jaycee said:
Yeah, I don't know how that could possibly be completely factual. I'm sure the base is there as you describe but given the wide support of the campaign (Bernie is ahead if we're talking about some polling data) that the "base" could be primarily POC seems not to be true. The numbers just wouldn't add up... but I do hope I'm wrong about those assumptions....

Maybe it's equally valid to say that the noisiest people who are often online and being eschewed forward by the media are the bullying progressive white males I'm describing. Either way. It's turned people off.

I was just getting coffee with a very progressive female colleague who is 31, who was discussing this very issue and how she has been completely turned off of supporting Sanders because of it. She is an undecided voter who would probably vote for Liz if Liz were on the ballot. So regardless of the "majority" argument the noise that has been made evident to people is something that is negative and imo Bernie would do well to speak out against forcefully and often.... but maybe he doesn't have to or want to.

Also Salon is not a reputable journalism outlet. Nor is USAToday.
The Bernie Bro myth is true if people believe it.... and they do.
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jaycee said:
Yeah, I don't know how that could possibly be completely factual. I'm sure the base is there as you describe but given the wide support of the campaign (Bernie is ahead if we're talking about some polling data) that the "base" could be primarily POC seems not to be true. The numbers just wouldn't add up... but I do hope I'm wrong about those assumptions....

Maybe it's equally valid to say that the noisiest people who are often online and being eschewed forward by the media are the bullying progressive white males I'm describing. Either way. It's turned people off.

I was just getting coffee with a very progressive female colleague who is 31, who was discussing this very issue and how she has been completely turned off of supporting Sanders because of it. She is an undecided voter who would probably vote for Liz if Liz were on the ballot. So regardless of the "majority" argument the noise that has been made evident to people is something that is negative and imo Bernie would do well to speak out against forcefully and often.... but maybe he doesn't have to or want to.

Also Salon is not a reputable journalism outlet. Nor is USAToday.
The Bernie Bro myth is true if people believe it.... and they do.
Click to expand...

How about you read the article with actual data before whole sale dismissing it. I’ll pull more articles supporting it. It’s actually an excellent article too.

People believe it specifically because institutions you would likely deem more reputable than Salon have been pushing it as a narrative for 5 years. Look at how easy it was for you to dismiss what the data says— that white, straight men make up less of Bernie’s base in 2020 than young women and POC.

As to the Liz thing- it’s real but I’d argue (and so would many of my Warren supporting friends who are switching over to Bernie) that has more to do with frustration over the fact she is losing and her posioning the well with the “Bernie said a women can’t win” accusation.
 
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